# Elegy for the minstrel show **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 17, 2019, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elegy-for-the-minstrel-show/840356 "2019-09-17T01:15:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Trancephalic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trancephalic/32/380_2.png) [@Trancephalic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trancephalic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elegy-for-the-minstrel-show/840356/41 "2019-09-18T01:14:54Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > Despite the irreducible racism, its passing is in a way to be regretted – because it is perhaps the only uniquely American form of live stage entertainment ever invented. General drama goes back to ancient Greece, vaudeville was essentially the same thing as British music hall, the Broadway musical derives from European light opera, but the [minstrel show](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show) was purely American. American culture has roots deeper than the arrival of the wasi’chu, even performance art. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elegy-for-the-minstrel-show/840356/42 "2019-09-18T01:39:05Z")
Michelle Shocked’s best album, **Arkansas Traveler** , was mostly about minstrel music. She disgraced herself horribly about 20 years later, but it’s still a great album. All of American entertainment has its roots in minstrelsy. You don’t have to celebrate it, but you really should acknowledge it. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elegy-for-the-minstrel-show/840356/43 "2019-09-18T04:38:07Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Love and Theft by Eric Lott is a good book about minstrelsy. > > It was a main tributary to all forms of modern popular music and entertainment, so it’s hard to cut it loose and damn it’s name. Some of the best scenarists, comedians and singers of their time did it. > > It has a complicated history that lends itself to deeper thoughts but in threads it can come to grief. Hey, we actually have something to talk about! In general, I agree. Like most issues regarding race in the US, it’s complex. There are songs that I wouldn’t know about if it weren’t for the minstrel show to popularize them, and like it or not it was a way for some black performers to feed themselves and maybe make a mark on a wider society at the time. White people who weren’t actually uneducated and from the country certainly played into the hillbilly stereotype to sell records in the decades after the minstrel show had died out - hell, they do it today. I’m not sure I can blame either side of that one, even if I wouldn’t personally be inclined to do it. That said, it is crazy how a minstrel show (and modern “Red Dirt” music) makes it easy to massage a bad stereotype into entertainment that folks can put butts in seats with. I won’t mourn it’s passing (or its eagerly awaited demise in the case of the latter), because its time has long passed, and some of the stereotypes it promoted remain a genuine problem. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elegy-for-the-minstrel-show/840356/44 "2019-09-18T10:04:27Z")
Racial caricatures aside, the traveling minstrel show was an incredibly significant force in American music, disseminating and popularizing new musical styles around the country. No minstrel shows, no jazz (or a very different and much more limited jazz and blues tradition). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elegy-for-the-minstrel-show/840356/45 "2019-09-18T10:49:34Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > No minstrel shows, no jazz No Nazis, no moon rockets. That’s no reason to celebrate Nazism or do anything but abhor it today. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elegy-for-the-minstrel-show/840356/46 "2019-09-18T11:11:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No Nazis, no moon rockets. > > That’s no reason to celebrate Nazism or do anything but abhor it today. I am not in any way “celebrating” minstrel shows. I was just acknowledging that once upon a time they played an important role in American music. That time pretty much finished by 1930 at the latest, and the fact that these shows continued for another half-century still remains horrific. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elegy-for-the-minstrel-show/840356/47 "2019-09-18T12:23:46Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I am not in any way “celebrating” minstrel shows. Not you, the OP. I was pointing out that your “no minstrels, no jazz” is not a counter to why we should abhor minstrel shows today (or, at any rate, “not regret their passing”). ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elegy-for-the-minstrel-show/840356/48 "2019-09-18T12:31:31Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I am not in any way “celebrating” minstrel shows. I was just acknowledging that once upon a time they played an important role in American music. That time pretty much finished by 1930 at the latest, and the fact that these shows continued for another half-century still remains horrific. You may not be “celebrating” minstrel shows, but the OP is and you and others in this thread are really really quick to dismiss all of the fucked up shit black folks have had to deal with as a result all so you can focus in on the parts you like. Given the current racial climate of the US, we as a people aren’t even close to being in a good place to start discussing the positive aspects of minstrel shows. Anytime you and yours start discussing any of the positives it comes across as a tacit approval of the entire art form, regardless of your intentions. To me you sound similar to Steve King when he said [paraphrase] “of course rape is bad, but think about all of the good babies that were born as a result!” Of course minstrel shows were bad but think about all of the entertainment white folks got out of it! Hell, some white folks in this very thread continue to be entertained by it today. Why can’t we celebrate the fact that your people’s pain and humiliation made white people smile, sing and clap their hands? Don’t be so sensitive. I hope you understand why me and mine don’t think fondly of you and yours when you take positions like that. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elegy-for-the-minstrel-show/840356/49 "2019-09-18T12:47:11Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > You may not be “celebrating” minstrel shows, but the OP is and you and others in this thread are really really quick to dismiss all of the fucked up shit black folks have had to deal with as a result all so you can focus in on the parts you like. > > Given the current racial climate of the US, we as a people aren’t even close to being in a good place to start discussing the positive aspects of minstrel shows. Anytime you and yours start discussing any of the positives it comes across as a tacit approval of the entire art form, regardless of your intentions. > > To me you sound similar to Steve King when he said [paraphrase] “of course rape is bad, but think about all of the good babies that were born as a result!” > > Of course minstrel shows were bad but think about all of the entertainment white folks got out of it! Hell, some white folks in this very thread continue to be entertained by it today. Why can’t we celebrate the fact that your people’s pain and humiliation made white people smile, sing and clap their hands? Don’t be so sensitive. > > I hope you understand why me and mine don’t think fondly of you and yours when you take positions like that. The fuck is “you and yours” and “Me and mine” ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elegy-for-the-minstrel-show/840356/50 "2019-09-18T13:05:06Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > The fuck is “you and yours” and “Me and mine” You and yours = people celebrating minstrel shows or overlooking how fucked up they really were Me and mine = people who think minstrel shows shouldn’t be looked at in a good light regardless of the positives Thought that was obvious but happy to clarify ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elegy-for-the-minstrel-show/840356/51 "2019-09-18T13:40:01Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > You may not be “celebrating” minstrel shows, but the OP is and you and others in this thread are really really quick to dismiss all of the fucked up shit black folks have had to deal with as a result all so you can focus in on the parts you like. > > Given the current racial climate of the US, we as a people aren’t even close to being in a good place to start discussing the positive aspects of minstrel shows. Anytime you and yours start discussing any of the positives it comes across as a tacit approval of the entire art form, regardless of your intentions. > > To me you sound similar to Steve King when he said [paraphrase] “of course rape is bad, but think about all of the good babies that were born as a result!” > > Of course minstrel shows were bad but think about all of the entertainment white folks got out of it! Hell, some white folks in this very thread continue to be entertained by it today. Why can’t we celebrate the fact that your people’s pain and humiliation made white people smile, sing and clap their hands? Don’t be so sensitive. > > I hope you understand why me and mine don’t think fondly of you and yours when you take positions like that. While I understand your position, I can see by your hyperbole your intent to infer a maximum of malign intent on my part. I am not “taking the position” you ascribe to me, but I suspect I have no chance of convincing you of that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elegy-for-the-minstrel-show/840356.md?page=2)