# Elementary, Middle, High **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 1, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867 "2013-11-01T19:57:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/21 "2013-11-02T02:15:18Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > I’ve seen this claim made several time recently, both here and in another forum I frequent. In my experience, high school has always been grades 9-12, and junior high was either 7-8 or 6-8. Where are these 7-9 junior highs and 10-12 high schools that people keep talking about? In Pennsylvania in the 60s I went to a rural, small town combined “Junior/Senior High School” with 7-12 then moved to a Pittsburgh suburb with separate schools. Junior was 7-9 and Senior 10-12. Elementary was 1-6 for both. Small town is still the same but the suburb is now K-4 Elementary, 5-6 Middle, 7-8 Middle, and 9-12 High. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/22 "2013-11-02T02:24:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by SCAdian > I’ve seen this claim made several time recently, both here and in another forum I frequent. In my experience, high school has always been grades 9-12, and junior high was either 7-8 or 6-8. Where are these 7-9 junior highs and 10-12 high schools that people keep talking about? Two that I’m aware of: Maryland, 1970s. Central Kitsap School District, present day. The funny part is, the 9th Graders in Junior High are also High School Freshmen. ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/23 "2013-11-02T02:32:14Z")
Grade levels in elementary, junior high and high school were frequently k-6 (elementary), 7-8 (junior high), and 9-12 (high school) in the rust belt. Population changes starting in the 70s due to dwindling industrial jobs made many cities in the region have to change to odd grade level mixes in order to best use their existing buildings. One can’t really call a 5th-8th grade school a “junior high” or a 6th-9th grade school a “high school.” Hence, the “Middle School” was born. A back-formed concept called “The True Middle School Concept” evolved later. This is how one of my education profs answered me when I asked “why the change to middle schools around here lately?” back in '81. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/24 "2013-11-02T03:15:08Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > I’ve seen this claim made several time recently, both here and in another forum I frequent. In my experience, high school has always been grades 9-12, and junior high was either 7-8 or 6-8. Where are these 7-9 junior highs and 10-12 high schools that people keep talking about? It was the norm except in small towns that only had K-8 and 9-12 schools until around the mid 80s. My youngest sister graduated in 1990, and hers was the first class in my hometown to do 9-12 at the high school when our school district switched to the “middle school” concept. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/25 "2013-11-02T03:18:48Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > I’ve seen this claim made several time recently, both here and in another forum I frequent. In my experience, high school has always been grades 9-12, and junior high was either 7-8 or 6-8. Where are these 7-9 junior highs and 10-12 high schools that people keep talking about? When I was in school in NYC, public elementary schools had K-6 , junior high schools were 7-9 and high schools were 9-12. Why the overlap in 9th grade? Because 1) parochial schools went K-8 and in those days it was common to attend a parochial school until 8th grade and then switch to public and 2) specialized high schools had a four year program and everyone started in 9th grade. Now there are public K-8 elementary schools , K-6 elementary schools, 6-8 middle schools and 9-12 high schools ---
**Author:** ![SanibelMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/26 "2013-11-02T03:24:28Z")
The public school district in suburban Cincinnati where I grew up had K-6 elementary schools and a 7-12 high school. The district where my kids go now has K-5 elementary schools, two 6-7 middle schools, an 8-9 “upper middle school” (the old high school building), and a new 10-12 high school. Another local school district has a 1-2 “primary school”, a 3-5 “intermediate school”, a 6-8 middle school and a 9-12 high school. There’s really no consistency whatsoever across the country or even in the same county, necessarily. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/27 "2013-11-02T15:29:54Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > When I attended the Chicago public schools (back in the middle ages), schools were elementary (or grade) K-8 and high school was 9-12. No middle, no junior. I also attended a K-8 school. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/28 "2013-11-02T16:38:02Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > When I attended the Chicago public schools (back in the middle ages), schools were elementary (or grade) K-8 and high school was 9-12. No middle, no junior. Yea, that was my experience too. I attended elementary school (grades 1 through 8) from 1974 to 1982, and then high school (grades 9 through 12) from 1982 to 1986. With our children, elementary school is grades 1 through 5, middle school is grades 6 trough 8, and high school is grades 9 through 12. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/29 "2013-11-02T17:53:21Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > I’ve seen this claim made several time recently, both here and in another forum I frequent. In my experience, high school has always been grades 9-12, and junior high was either 7-8 or 6-8. Where are these 7-9 junior highs and 10-12 high schools that people keep talking about? A lot of “Junior Highs” were converted to “Middle Schools” in the 1960’s-1970’s or so. Older posters may be remembering what school they went to. Basically there is “Primary” and “Secondary” education. Up until the early to mid 20th century, many people could get by on just a primary education, dropping out of school to get a job sometime after 8th grade. The Primary/Secondary split is defined somewhere around 7th grade. I used to work in a building that opened at “X Junior/Senior High School”, perhaps with a total enrollment of 150 students in 1930, covering grades 7-9. It replaced two smaller secondary schools buildings, which were then converted to consolidated elementary schools to replace the one room school houses! As the population rose, they built bigger elementary schools to house the younger grades, and the Junior/Senior High became just a High School. Due to the size of the school it held grades 10-12, and 9th was treated as high school, but taught in an elementary school building. In 1960 they built a a bigger high school that held all four grades and converted the older smaller building into a Middle School, serving 6-8, instead of 10-12. Different towns built their schools in different orders, so the exact grades vary, but in general grades are distributed according to the traditional Primary/Secondary split. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/30 "2013-11-02T18:08:47Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > A lot of “Junior Highs” were converted to “Middle Schools” in the 1960’s-1970’s or so. Yep. The high school I attended started as a junior high school, then ca. 1971 my school district dropped junior high schools in favor of middle schools, and it was converted up to being a high school. My brother (several years older than me) attended 7th grade junior high and 9th-12th high school at the same facility, with 8th grade middle school in between. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/31 "2013-11-02T21:07:30Z")
Although most of the schools I attended for K-12 were in Virginia and labeled on the buildings as one of elementary, junior high, or high school, they were really divided into primary (grades 1 through 8) and secondary (grades 9 through 12). This I discovered when I was applying to state tertiary schools in Virginia and the primary/secondary breakdown was what was required on the state school applications. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/32 "2013-11-02T21:41:10Z")
I can’t find a cite. But recall reading it is to protect the younger kids from the older kids. Either physical bullying or being a bad influence. I recall my Elementary school had a separate wing for the 1st and 2nd graders. They had a separate playground. They never had any contact with the older kids. It is safer keeping the young kids in elementary school and the older kids in middle school or high school. > [@Longshanks](#): > > In America why are schools split into elementary, middle and high instead of just elementary and high? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/33 "2013-11-02T21:47:26Z")
Heres one article on the development of Middle Schools. Educators still see problems. > **[The Middle School Mess](https://www.educationnext.org/the-middle-school-mess/)** > > If you love bungee jumping, you’re the middle school type ---
**Author:** ![Sahirrnee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sahirrnee/32/13937_2.png) [@Sahirrnee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sahirrnee)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/34 "2013-11-02T23:38:01Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > I’ve seen this claim made several time recently, both here and in another forum I frequent. In my experience, high school has always been grades 9-12, and junior high was either 7-8 or 6-8. Where are these 7-9 junior highs and 10-12 high schools that people keep talking about? Anne Arundel County MD I went to school in the 60s and 70s. Elementary was 1-6 Junior High was 7-9 Senior High was 10-12 9th grade was considered to be high school but it was in the junior high building and we still had the junior high restrictions - dress code, couldn’t leave school property, couldn’t even go outside except for gym class. Also, except for the few electives you stayed with the same class all day. Different rooms, different teachers, same classmates. High school had no dress code (within reason), we had open campus and could come and go as we pleased, we could leave the school at lunch time. Most classes were a mixture of all three grades and seldom with the same classmates. My son went to the same schools in the 2000s Elementary was 1-5 Middle School was 6-8 with the 6th graders segregated from the older grades High School 9-12. The HS has changed, now they have a dress code, can’t leave the property with signing out and having a parent come into the building and showing ID to pick them up. Even after my son turned 18 and was an adult I still had to go into the office to sign him out if he had to leave early. I still had to write a note if he was out sick. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/35 "2013-11-03T20:33:12Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Unless my own experience is atypical, in elementary school, children spend most of the school day in one classroom with one teacher who is responsible for their education in most or all subjects. > [@robert\_columbia](#): > > This was my experience in Virginia. I suspect that’s atypical, or perhaps things have changed. In the 60’s, we had a single teacher for kindergarten, but had different teachers for different subjects starting in first grade. That was also how my son’s school worked in the 80’s. Both were in Michigan, but different cities. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/36 "2013-11-03T20:56:53Z")
> [@Sahirrnee](#): > > Anne Arundel County MD > …The HS has changed, now they have a dress code, can’t leave the property with signing out and having a parent come into the building and showing ID to pick them up. Even after my son turned 18 and was an adult I still had to go into the office to sign him out if he had to leave early. I still had to write a note if he was out sick. Fairfax County, VA - 1990’s - Students could not leave the campus during the school day without permission. This was called a “closed campus” and applied from the moment you stepped foot on school property in the morning, even if it was before school started, to the final dismissal. Many students were upset because the school bus would drop them off at school a half hour before the first class, and they were not allowed to even cross the street because they had already entered school property. I don’t know what happened if a student accidentally wandered onto campus at 1 AM on a school day, that would be interesting. We had a “dress code”, but not uniforms. The dress code more or less had two requirements. One was that you could not wear excessively revealing, distracting, or “inappropriate” attire. “Inappropriate” more or less meant “clothing that advertises alcohol or tobacco products or encourages gang activity”. The other was NO HATS!!111!!!one. There _was_ an exception written in to the policy that allowed one to cover their head for bona-fide religious or medical reasons. Occasionally there would be rumors that boys could get a disciplinary referral for wearing kilts (as ignorant teachers sometimes considered that to be “crossdressing” and therefore distracting or inappropriate). I’m not aware it ever actually happened at my district, but there were news stories of it occasionally happening elsewhere in the country, and the result was usually a hard and firm play of the Ethnic Prejudice Card and a profuse apology from the teacher, principal, etc. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/37 "2013-11-03T22:00:58Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > …I went to Catholic schools in the Midwest (Illinois and Wisconsin); there, it was pretty common for “elementary schools” to be K-8, and then the high schools went from 9-12… That’s how the Catholic schools operate here in Northeast PA too. > [@Longshanks](#): > > Well I suppose it varies from school to schools also but usually infants is attached to junior and a sixth form college is attached to a secondary school, so there isn’t really much of a division. A sixth-form college can either be a freestanding institution (like in **Skins** ) or attached to a secondary school (like in **The Inbetweeners** ). It seems sixth formers, at least in freestanding colleges have a lot more freedom than other students (& they’re past compulsory school age). I know the Scottish system is completely different, but I’m not sure about Wales & Northern Ireland. > [@Doug\_K](#): > > It was the norm except in small towns that only had K-8 and 9-12 schools until around the mid 80s. My youngest sister graduated in 1990, and hers was the first class in my hometown to do 9-12 at the high school when our school district switched to the “middle school” concept. A K-8 school is also known as a grammar school in the US (which is very different concept from an English grammar school). They used to be the norm, at least in rural areas. Both of my parents attended one (though no the same one). A typical setup was one grammar school per town with a regional high school covering multiple towns. Also common is a K-6 elementary school and a 7-12 high school. When I started kindergarten our school had 6th graders (who then went on to HS), but by the time I started first grade the districts new middle school was completed (adjacent to the high school) and grades 6-8 were sent there. They were separate buildings connected by two enclosed walkways on either side of a huge empty courtyard that both sets of locker rooms had doors opening into (originally there was supposed to be a pool there). The neighboring district had one K-6 elementary school and a 7-12 high school (& a pool). ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/38 "2013-11-03T22:17:07Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > I suspect that’s atypical, or perhaps things have changed. In the 60’s, we had a single teacher for kindergarten, but had different teachers for different subjects starting in first grade. That was also how my son’s school worked in the 80’s. Both were in Michigan, but different cities. For both myself and my kids K to 4th grade was the same teacher all day except gym, art and music (which were once a week classes). Starting in 5th , there was different teacher for each subject. As it’s a K-8 school , that meant that one teacher taught English to all the students, another math etc. When you say different teachers for different subjects starting in first grade, do you mean different teachers coming in for a once a week class , or are you talking about first graders being taught by six or seven different teachers each day? Because while the former might be common, the latter would have been unusual even in the 60’s ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/39 "2013-11-03T23:30:25Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > I’ve seen this claim made several time recently, both here and in another forum I frequent. In my experience, high school has always been grades 9-12, and junior high was either 7-8 or 6-8. Where are these 7-9 junior highs and 10-12 high schools that people keep talking about? I went to one in NY state about 25 years ago. Mrs. Barnacle can go on-and-on (perhaps I exagerate) about the huge mistake it was (developmentally) to have kids go to middle school, and much prefers the K-8 || 9-12 model. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867/40 "2013-11-03T23:34:55Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Fairfax County, VA - 1990’s - > Occasionally there would be rumors that boys could get a disciplinary referral for wearing kilts (as ignorant teachers sometimes considered that to be “crossdressing” and therefore distracting or inappropriate). My daughter’s school also does not permit cross-dressing, to the point that she could not dress up as Willy Wonka for Halloween!:smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elementary-middle-high/672867.md?page=3)