# Eleven are frozen, one is not... why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 12, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724 "2003-03-12T03:01:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Linguini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ab097/32.png) [@Linguini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linguini)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/1 "2003-03-12T03:01:08Z")
It’s been 5 below zero (F) for the past week. I left a case of bottled water in the garage where it is a balmy 10 above. There are twelve 12 oz. plastic bottles in the case (3 rows of 4). All the bottles are frozen solid except for one in the middle. This bottle is cold but has no ice in it at all. Any idea how this can be? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/2 "2003-03-12T03:30:14Z")
If it was in the middle of all the other bottles, it would be the last one to radiate its heat. It would have frozen eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/3 "2003-03-12T03:30:52Z")
The ones on the outside insulated it? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/4 "2003-03-12T03:37:09Z")
OOOO O **OO** O OOOO As you can see, there’s two on the inside equidistant from the outer ones. Why would one freeze and not the other? ---
**Author:** ![Caught\_Work](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Caught\_Work](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caught_Work)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/5 "2003-03-12T03:41:50Z")
Aliens or abnormal sunspot activity, that’s my excuse for weird suff like this. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/6 "2003-03-12T03:44:23Z")
Where was the coldest wall, door, window, etc.? Was there any wind or even a slight breeze. [ul]😉 [sup] **Face it, it was not because of magic.** [/sup][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/7 "2003-03-12T03:48:42Z")
Perhaps the one bottle that didn’t freeze had a slightly higher dissolved impurities concentration in it? Even things like dissolved gasses can raise the freezing point of water. If that bottle had been sealed at a colder ambient temperature than the others, the internal air pressure would be higher when the the temperatures of the bottles equalized, which might also affect the freezing point slightly. Ok, a bunch of WAGs, but someone had to try at least. ---
**Author:** ![billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billy)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/8 "2003-03-12T04:02:07Z")
Nobody thinks the water may just be supercooled? Give it a shake and see if it freezes. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/9 "2003-03-12T04:08:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by billy \* > \*\*Nobody thinks the water may just be supercooled? Give it a shake and see if it freezes. \*\* No. Supercooling only occurs with [url=http://www.cimms.ou.edu/~cortinas/1014/l17\_1.html}small water droplets. > [@](#): > > Water that exists as liquid below 0 deg. C is called supercooled water. Why does this happen? Recall that ice has a crystalline structure, unlike liquid water. In order for small water droplets to freeze near 0 deg. C., enough water molecules must come together to form an embryo of ice to start the freezing process. This typically does not occur until the temperature of the water has reached ~-40 deg. C. However, if the molecular structure of a particle within the supercooled water droplet has a similar crystalline structure as ice, freezing can occur rapidly around this particle; these particles are called ice nuclei (IN). Freezing can also occur if supercooled water makes contact with suspended IN. Experiments have shown that the concentration of IN increases as the temperature decreases, particularly below -10 deg. C. Therefore, a most water droplets will remain supercooled when the air is slightly colder than 0 deg. C and will not freeze until they reach a temperature of -10 deg. C. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/10 "2003-03-12T04:09:10Z")
[Fixed link.](http://www.cimms.ou.edu/~cortinas/1014/l17_1.html) ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/11 "2003-03-12T04:38:41Z")
**QED** , there’s nothing in that link that suggests that supercooling _only_ occurs in small water droplets. It only explains _how_ it occurs in small water droplets; understandable since it’s part of a lecture on cloud formation. ---
**Author:** ![billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billy)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/12 "2003-03-12T04:45:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*No. Supercooling only occurs with [url=http://www.cimms.ou.edu/~cortinas/1014/l17\_1.html}small water droplets. \*\* No where in that link does it say that only water droplets can be supercooled. If I have time later, I will find a cite supporting my theory that a water bottle can be supercooled if someone else doesn’t do it for me. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/13 "2003-03-12T05:01:52Z")
Nope, it can only occur in **very** small droplets. [Cite:](http://weather.cod.edu/sirvatka/bergeron.html) > [@](#): > > Liquid water that is cooler than 0°C is called supercooled. In the atmosphere, similar to CCN, there exist freezing nuclei. In contrast to CCN, freezing nuclei are not plentiful in the atmosphere because there structure must be similar to the structure of an ice crystal. Most of the naturally occurring freezing nuclei “activate” at about -10°C. These freezing nuclei allow for the cloud droplets to freeze around them. **Because of the relative sparseness of the freezing nuclei, ice crystals and supercooled water droplets can coexist at the same time.** ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/14 "2003-03-12T05:45:52Z")
I have personally witnessed whole containers of water that are supercooled, that freeze rapidly once jarred of moved. I’ve seen it more often with sealed bottles of beer or pop that are opened, but I have also seen in happen in a open flask that I’ve pulled out of the freezer. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/15 "2003-03-12T05:47:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sigene \* > \*\*I have personally witnessed whole containers of water that are supercooled, that freeze rapidly once jarred of moved. > > I’ve seen it more often with sealed bottles of beer or pop that are opened, but I have also seen in happen in a open flask that I’ve pulled out of the freezer. \*\* I’d like a cite to back that up, please. ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/16 "2003-03-12T05:51:50Z")
Sorry, I can’t give you more than “I HAVE PERSONALLY WITNESSED” You’ll have to just believe me or not. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/17 "2003-03-12T06:46:05Z")
Yah, I’ve seen this, too, with beer and soda. Does personal experience count for nowt? Anyway here are some cites for you: **For beer:** > [@](#): > > [http://speedy.st-and.ac.uk/~naismith/teaching/lectures/1001/lect\_11.htm](http://speedy.st-and.ac.uk/~naismith/teaching/lectures/1001/lect_11.htm) > > In a vibration free and clean container, water temperature can be lowered to below freezing without ice forming. In the US, one can see this with Bud or Coors, the beer can be supercooled by pouring ice cold beer into an ice cold glass. Touching it with your lips causes a thin layer of ice to form. > [@](#): > > [http://www.geocities.com/drinkslinks/odd07.html](http://www.geocities.com/drinkslinks/odd07.html) > > Sometimes, when I take a bottle filled with liquid (preferably beer) out of a cold refrigerator, opening it results in the liquid freezing. Why? > > …In order for an ice crystal to form in water, it requires some form of “seed”. An airborne particle is sufficient. A liquid that is devoid of a seed particle will rarely solidify at its prescribed freezing temperature. Utterly pure water, isolated in a smooth container and placed within a container of liquid nitrogen, can be reduced to a few degrees Kelvin before freezing occurs. **For water:** > [@](#): > > [http://www.physics.ncsu.edu/pira/4therm/4C20.html](http://www.physics.ncsu.edu/pira/4therm/4C20.html) > > Water in a **small test tube** is cooled to -4 C by placing in a dry ice/alcohol bath. Shake to freeze and the temperature will rise to 0 C. > > [emphasis mine] > [@](#): > > [http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/water\_steam\_ice.html](http://howthingswork.virginia.edu/water_steam_ice.html) > > In his Lectures on the Elements of Chemistry, Joseph Black discussed his difficulty in understanding latent heat. He performed an experiment where **water in a tube** was brought below freezing without a phase change. The water remained in this equilibrium as long as the tube of water was not disturbed. When it was disturbed, the water instantly turned to ice, releasing enough heat to raise the temperature of the ice to 0° C. Please explain why the system remained in equilibrium until it was acted upon by some external motion. – EDH, Annapolis, MD > > The water in Black’s tube was in an unstable equilibrium state known as supercooled water. Supercooled water tends to spontaneously convert into ice. When part of this supercooled water does convert to ice, it releases enough latent heat energy to raise its temperature and that of the remaining water to 0° C, thereby terminating the phase transition before all of the water has become ice. > > But in the experiment you describe, the supercooled water was having trouble nucleating the initial seed ice crystal on which the remaining water could crystallize. Given enough time, that water would have spontaneously formed a seed crystal and the growth of the ice crystal would have proceeded rapidly after that. However, Black accelerated the formation of the seed crystal by shaking the tube. A defect at the surface of the tube or a piece of dust then acted as the trigger and helped the seed ice crystal form. The water then crystallized rapidly around this seed crystal. After the ice had formed, the water was truly in equilibrium. > > [emphasis mine] And, **QED** you citation still doesn’t say anything about supercooling occuring **only** in droplets. Just that supercooled droplets and ice crystals can be found simultaneously because the particles are far apart. ---
**Author:** ![herman\_and\_bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f1d935/32.png) [@herman\_and\_bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/herman_and_bill)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/18 "2003-03-12T11:27:12Z")
I have seen what Sigene has seen. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/19 "2003-03-12T11:38:47Z")
Add me to the list of those who have seen this phenomenon; I’m not sure if it could properly be described as supercooling though; in my case, it was a plastic bottle of orangeade whcih I put in the freezer to chill, then forgot about. When I removed it, the contents were still entirely liquid but when I opened the cap, releasing the pressure inside, the contents solidified almost instantly. The reason that I’m not sure this qualifies as supercooling is that it _may_ have happened as a result of CO[sub]2[/sub] coming out of solution, changing the freezing properties of the liquid. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2003, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724/20 "2003-03-12T11:42:20Z")
Another possibility – the water in that bottle is contaminated with something with a lower freezinf temperature. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eleven-are-frozen-one-is-not-why/160724.md?page=2)