# Elian Gonzalez belongs in Cuba ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2000, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038 "2000-03-30T13:45:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![meara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@meara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meara)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/61 "2000-04-06T12:53:00Z")
Okay… for everyone who jumped on me about exit visas keeping a poor father from his boy, how do you explain this (from CNN): > [@](#): > > From CNN’s top story: > > The father has said the only way he was willing to travel to the United States was if he could be assured that he would be able to take temporary custody of the boy from Elian’s great-uncle in Miami, Lazaro Gonzalez, pending the outcome of legal appeals. Unless CNN is biased (possible), this suggests that the father is putting conditions on his travel to be with his son. Not that his request is unreasonable, but DAMN – why help use your son as a pawn like that. If my son were stranded in Afghanistan (one of the most wretched placesI can conceive of venturing right now), I wouldn’t sit here negotiating (“I’ll only come if you don’t make me wear a burqa”). I’d be on that plane. Even if I couldn’t get temporary custody, a brief visit would be better than no contact at all. So, unless someone is twisting Juan Miguel’s words, something smells here. ---
**Author:** ![meara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@meara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meara)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/62 "2000-04-06T13:03:00Z")
I guess UBB didn’t like quotes around the URLs [CNN story](http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/04/06/cuba.boy.03/index.html) [Gender Apartheid in Afghanistan](http://www.feminist.org/afghan/intro.html) ---
**Author:** ![PatrickM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7feea3/32.png) [@PatrickM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickM)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/63 "2000-04-06T14:06:00Z")
IMHO the boy should be returned to his father, pronto. My question is: does the father have a right to sue the Miami relatives for interference with his parental rights aka alienation of affection? I think so. What does the panel think? ---
**Author:** ![meara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@meara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meara)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/64 "2000-04-06T14:52:00Z")
I agree that he should be returned to the father immediately. However, I don’t think it was unreasonable of the Miami relatives to request that the father come pick him up (a different story if they had been the ones who removed him from Cuba, but they weren’t). The only legitimate case the father could make would be against the late mother. It’s ethical for a country to return a child to a foreign parent, but I believe the (legal) burden should be on the parent to come retrieve the child. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/65 "2000-04-06T15:00:00Z")
If the courts don’t support the uncle’s custody, and the uncle refuses to hand him over, isn’t the uncle guilty of kidnapping? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/66 "2000-04-06T18:01:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I see a lot of pride in the faces of the protesters waving that flag in my country. Well hell, it’s _your_ country, why don’t you just kick 'em all out yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2000, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/67 "2000-04-06T18:31:00Z")
Because, unlike Miami’s vocal Cuban community at the moment, most of us honour the Rule of Law. ---
**Author:** ![Bucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Bucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bucky)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2000, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/68 "2000-04-07T18:22:00Z")
Tell me if I’m wrong here. Didn’t the mom illegally take Elian away? Doesn’t a Cuabn father have some rights? If my (imaginary) ex-wife took my (imaginary\_ son away in so risky a venture that she DIED doing it, I would think that lots of people would call her irresponsible as hell and not fit to have kept custody even if she had succeeded. When one parent takes a child away without the other parent’s consent, isn’t that called KIDNAPPING? My opinion is that I can’t express my opinion about the Cuban-Americans inMiami, the Miaimi mayor, and Elian’s American “family” without using words that eblong in the Pit. Bucky ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2000, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/69 "2000-04-07T23:43:00Z")
The attitude of cubans in Miami is indefensible. They should respect the laws of the country like everyone else. On the other hand, who really started the whole stink was Castro who agitated and mobilised the Cuban people in huge demonstrations against the “kidnapping”. I can understand how the Cubans in Miami got so aggravated (although it does not excuse what they are doing). But if they really care for the kid they would quit what they are doing because the kid is going to be traumatised by all this. I have seen many assumptions that the father would defect if given the chance. He is now in Washington DC and can defect easily if he wants and we will only know if and when he returns to Cuba… I think the longer he stays here the better the chances he may defect but do not assume that he will. I met in Cuba many people who are loyal communist fanatics and no amount of reasoning will change their minds. But if he remains here long enough and forms some bonds, things may change. Time will tell. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2000, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/70 "2000-04-08T05:21:00Z")
Freedom hit the nail on the head: > [@](#): > > As far as I can tell, this is a custody battle, not a true immigration one. BINGO! Except for the fact that Castro’s surrogates in D.C. have redefined it, thus allowing them to acquiesce to a regime with which they philosophically sympathize. I’d like to see Janet Reno roll up to the great-uncle’s house in a tank. This is probably the only time you’ll hear the leftists make the claim that “a boy belongs with his father.” ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2000, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/71 "2000-04-08T10:02:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by CalifBoomer: > **This is probably the only time you’ll hear the leftists make the claim that "a boy belongs with his father."** The right wing “family-values” crowd isn’t exactly being consistent with their professed beliefs, either. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2000, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/72 "2000-04-08T18:48:00Z")
Let’s say: Mom, Dad and Elian all successfully emigrated to Miami a year ago, only Mom doesn’t take to it and longs to return to her homeland, she leaves with the boy on a rickety boat, boats upset, boy is plucked from the waters of Guantanamo Bay, with only a surviving Father in America. ``` Now I ask you these few questions: ``` 1. Would the Miami Cubans be screaming for the government to override the rights of the father and leave the boy where he remains. 2. Would the Mother’s dying wish be of any importance in this scenario? 3. Would Miami still be about to go up in flames? 4. And, of course, would Gloria Estifan feel it was okay for a Cuban Pop Star to shape public opinion concerning what ‘ought’ to happen to her family. 5. If something should happen to your spouse and you happen to be apart from your child do you believe your distant relatives, a second cousin and two great uncles (with 7 dui’s between them) should decide what’s best for your family? * * * Wisdom is the boobie prize,they give you when you’ve been --unwise! ---
**Author:** ![RoboDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@RoboDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoboDude)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2000, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/73 "2000-04-08T20:42:00Z")
* * * ## If Elian was 300 pounds, with zits and crooked or missing teeth, would this huhbub be the same? If Elian weighed 300 pounds, we’d probably have more compelling things to think about than whether to send him back. 🙂 * * * Life is a tragedy for those who feel and a comedy for those who think. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/74 "2000-04-14T12:15:00Z")
Okay, it’s been six whole days since the last post. What has changed? Well, for one thing, I just heard Charlie Gibson on _Good Morning America_ say, quote, “Janet Reno and the Justice Department must decide how to fight the court order that orders Elian’s return to Cuba.” Excuse me? How does the Justice Dept. “fight a court order”? Granted, I may not have been paying terribly close attention in civics class, but I did come away with the definite impression that the Justice Dept. and the court system were on the same side. Isn’t the Justice Dept. “fighting a court order” kind of like watching a man arm-wrestle with himself? * * * “Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen ---
**Author:** ![TomH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/90db22/32.png) [@TomH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TomH)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/75 "2000-04-14T13:55:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Isn’t the Justice Dept. “fighting a court order” kind of like watching a man arm-wrestle with himself? Nope. The US Constitution has that whole “separation of powers” thing. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2000, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/76 "2000-04-15T04:19:00Z")
What’s changed? Not much. I’m telling you, no matter what happens here, Miami is going to go up in flames. * * * Wisdom is the boobie prize,they give you when you’ve been --unwise! ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2000, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/77 "2000-04-15T04:37:00Z")
“If the courts don’t support the uncle’s custody, and the uncle refuses to hand him over, isn’t the uncle guilty of kidnapping” It really depends on wether the kid wants to go or not 🙂 If they take him against his will they are kidnapping. If the uncle keeps him against his will he is kidnapping. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2000, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/78 "2000-04-15T06:54:00Z")
Apparently there is new info. 1. Elian was born after they were divorced. 2.There is some evidence that Elians Father was an abusive Husband. The proper, legal thing to do is have a custody battle in Court. Let everyone have their say, then let the Judge decide, just like the normal proc. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2000, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/79 "2000-04-15T10:47:00Z")
I can’t imagine what #1 would have to do with anything. As for #2, there is no **evidence** that Sr Gonzalez was abusive, there are only **allegations**. I worked in family law for a couple years. It is, unfortunately, extremely common for one side in a custody battle to falsely accuse the other side of abuse. Allegations made as late in the day as those against Sr Gonzalez were should be viewed with particular suspicion. If the Miami mafia do come up with some actual evidence, then by all means have a custody battle. Failing that, the “proper, legal, normal procedure” is to return the kid to his father. ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2000, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038/80 "2000-04-15T23:30:00Z")
ruadh; they have the testimony of an eyewitness. That almost DEFINES evidence. True, the witness may be wrong, biased, or bought, but eyewitness testimony is evidence none-the-less. Whether or not abuse is proven, a custody hearing is the only fair, DEMOCRATIC way to do it. I expect the hearing to rule in favor of Sr. Gonzales, but I do not have all the evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elian-gonzalez-belongs-in-cuba/18038.md?page=5)