# Eliminating the apostrophe would improve English **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 6, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150 "2018-03-06T21:20:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/41 "2018-03-07T11:11:32Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The fact that the history of it is stupid (which I’m presuming it is) means nothing; the history of _all_ English spelling and writing is stupid. I agree - there’s no fixing it; reforming spelling to try make it consistent with pronunciation is another one (and that one is pointless because there is no standard pronunciation) > [@](#): > > Plus, this seems like a really weird hill to die on. If I were going to attack a stupid example of english language law, I’d go after that moronic rule that quote marks absorb the punctuation around them (as in your “correct,”, up there). Now that rule changes meaning! And as a writer I hate it so, so much. I will restructure sentences to avoid running up against the most egregious infractions it causes, and if I’m quoting something written I just say fuck it and break the rule with deliberate intent. I agree with you on that one too - I break that rule on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/42 "2018-03-07T11:18:41Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > Didn’t they already do this in England? No - if anything we’re overstocked on apostrophes, and we are dealing with the surplus by dropping them in where they don’t belong. I saw a roadside sign for a Caf’e the other day; I stopped to look at the menu and they were offering Petit Four’s - as well as the usual Tea’s, Coffee’s and Sandwich’s ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/43 "2018-03-07T13:03:53Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > I doubt it adds up to anything close to what it would take to eliminate all those apostrophes. Do you realize how many are out there? Eliminating them from a single document would be really easy, and that’s the level I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/44 "2018-03-07T13:44:45Z")
Let’s see… Tpau? Nope. Moving on. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/45 "2018-03-07T14:30:55Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If I were going to attack a stupid example of english language law, I’d go after that moronic rule that quote marks absorb the punctuation around them (as in your “correct,”, up there). Now that rule changes meaning! And as a writer I hate it so, so much. I will restructure sentences to avoid running up against the most egregious infractions it causes, and if I’m quoting something written I just say fuck it and break the rule with deliberate intent. > [@Mangetout](#): > > I agree with you on that one too - I break that rule on purpose. Me, too. And you can quote me on that. Hows about we get rid of “whom”. I am hearing respected journalists on NPR use “who” where it should be “whom” all the time. I think the train has left the station on that one, and we should codify it into law. Whom is with me on that? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/46 "2018-03-07T17:12:48Z")
Aww, now I quite like whom. I’m not sure I know how to use it properly, but I like hearing elderly ladies say it. ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/47 "2018-03-07T17:31:06Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Aww, now I quite like whom. I’m not sure I know how to use it properly, but I like hearing elderly ladies say it. Which reminds me of an exchange between Matt Lucas and Stephen Fry on an episode of QI. It was directly after Fry had pulled someone else up on a minor grammatical infraction. ML: Knock knock SF: Who’s there? ML: Doctor SF: Doctor Who? ML: That should be Doctor _Whom_, actually ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/48 "2018-03-07T17:38:49Z")
^ Cute. The apostrophe only has two jobs–poor fellow–contractions and possessives. It is those GD "S"s that have to go. (Sorry, my blood sugar is low.) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/49 "2018-03-07T17:40:02Z")
There’s a lot of anal bs in traditional English grammar. I’m very happy to see it evolve and modernize. Writing is an essential tool. It’s not a game of gotcha. I haven’t used Whom or Shall in a sentence since College English. It’s guaranteed someone will bitch it’s used wrong. It’s a bit silly to put words in a language that nearly everyone misuses. Creating a word trap for people to fail. Fuck it then. I’ll use a different word. I got better things to do then worry about who or whom. Commas and apostrophes are easy. Imho Although I’m sure there are people that get worked over the slightest misuse. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/50 "2018-03-07T18:21:55Z")
As a cranky pedant, I feel compelled to point out that eliminating _people_ who misuse apostrophes _also_ solves the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/51 "2018-03-07T18:43:24Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > No - if anything we’re overstocked on apostrophes, and we are dealing with the surplus by dropping them in where they don’t belong. I saw a roadside sign for a Caf’e the other day; I stopped to look at the menu and they were offering Petit Four’s - as well as the usual Tea’s, Coffee’s and Sandwich’s The “caf’e” is probably just a Brexit accent. We’re just not importing any of that funny foreign punctuation any more. We already have a critical shortage of cedillas and umlauts. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/52 "2018-03-07T18:44:33Z")
> [@Mark Twain](#): > > For example, in Year 1 that useless letter “c” would be dropped to be replased either by “k” or “s”, and likewise “x” would no longer be part of the alphabet. > > The only kase in which “c” would be retained would be the “ch” formation, which will be dealt with later. > > Year 2 might reform “w” spelling, so that “which” and “one” would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish “y” replasing it with “i” and iear 4 might fiks the “g/j” anomali wonse and for all. > > Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. > > Bai iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez “c”, “y” and “x” – bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez – tu riplais “ch”, “sh”, and “th” rispektivli. > > Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. … ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/53 "2018-03-07T19:09:52Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > As a cranky pedant, I feel compelled to point out that eliminating _people_ who misuse apostrophes _also_ solves the problem. And now we have the world’s first case of proposed mass linguisticide. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/54 "2018-03-07T19:13:34Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > And now we have the world’s first case of proposed mass linguisticide. > > Stranger I _strongly_ doubt it’s the first. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/55 "2018-03-07T22:46:30Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > People are left grasping for ways a missing apostrophe could be misleading. But so many people (and this board is full of them) can spy (and point out) missing apostrophes with ease. If their absence were truly confusing, we wouldn’t be able to spot their absence so easily. Definitely not true. English only has about 1 bit of entropy per character; you can eliminate any single character and almost all text is still decipherable, and the locations of the missing characters are easy to spot. For example, the following text has really only one reasonably ambiguous word, and it’s still pretty guessable from context, yet I’ve done away with the most common english letter. Should we conclude then that we could do without Es because we can still figure things out? Popl ar lft grasping for ways a missing apostroph could be mislading. But so many popl (and this board is full of them) can spy (and point out) missing apostrophs with as. If thir absnc wr truly confusing, w wouldn’t b abl to spot thir absnc so asily ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/56 "2018-03-07T23:26:21Z")
Today I learned that Cormac McCarthy is a Doper. Because my name is D’Artagnan R’lyeh, I have a personal investment in this, and will pigheadedly resist it. Though it will make it would save me countless time to not constantly have to edit website registrations when it tells me I’m using “invalid characters.” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/57 "2018-03-07T23:56:39Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > Eliminating them from a single document would be really easy, and that’s the level I’m talking about. No, it’s not. Because that document will then be seen as being full of mistakes. You are advocating willfully changing centuries of history of English orthography. Far more useful changes have been tried and failed, because you can’t change a language that way. I know some people make mistakes with apostrophes. That’s not a bad thing. It is useful to be able to identify those who cannot understand the convention or don’t care to bother with it. It’s even useful to catch how often one makes typographical errors. I’ll be honest–I assumed from the OP that you were just facetiously expressing your frustration with the mistakes. Surely you don’t actually think this is something that is doable, right? ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/58 "2018-03-08T03:53:45Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Today I learned that Cormac McCarthy is a Doper. > > Because my name is D’Artagnan R’lyeh, I have a personal investment in this, and will pigheadedly resist it. Though it will make it would save me countless time to not constantly have to edit website registrations when it tells me I’m using “invalid characters.” [del]As an apostrophed[/del] [del]As an apostrophe’d[/del] [del]As an apostrofied[/del] Yeah I know what you mean. Keep up the good fight. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/59 "2018-03-08T07:12:23Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > The “caf’e” is probably just a Brexit accent. We’re just not importing any of that funny foreign punctuation any more. We already have a critical shortage of cedillas and umlauts. I’m sure that’s what they were aiming for, but the sign actually said (in block caps): CAF’E ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150/60 "2018-03-08T11:04:38Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’m sure that’s what they were aiming for, but the sign actually said (in block caps): CAF’E when I type [C][a][f][‘][e] this is the result: Café [C][A][F][’][E] CAFÉ in Chrome on Win 10, US international keyboard [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliminating-the-apostrophe-would-improve-english/810150.md?page=4)