# Eliud Kipchoge: 1:59:40 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 12, 2019, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676 "2019-10-12T12:24:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/21 "2019-10-13T00:55:56Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This was more like setting a land speed record than a record breaking race time. I’m not sure that’s a good analogy. It’s the artificial pacers breaking air resistance that’s the main problem with this. You can’t have a separately propelled fairing moving ahead of you breaking air resistance in a land speed record either. If this approach were used for something involving higher speeds (cycling, something motorized) then it would be seen as very obviously fake, since aerodynamic drag goes with the square of speed, and the difference would be enormous. It’s hard to analyze how much difference the reduction in aerodynamic drag made for this runner at 13mph, but if this kind of attempt became a common thing, I think it would end up being an exercise in how efficiently you could arrange a bunch of tall guys to run in relay in some kind V-formation ahead of the protected runner, which I think is a bit silly. Other runners sacrificing their chances by breaking wind for a protected runner earlier in a race has always been part of racing, so that’s fine. But I’m dismissive of anything where pacers don’t have to participate fully and and run the full distance from the start. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/22 "2019-10-13T12:42:01Z")
Yes, the difference will be small at these speeds, but then, it’s small differences we’re looking at (approximately 1 part in 60). What about natural winds, though? I know that official marathon courses need to finish very near to where they started, but it’s not unheard-of for winds to shift direction in an hour, nor for them to have a circular pattern, either of which could make it possible to run an entire marathon with a tailwind. Or you could start out upwind (when your teammates are still fresh enough to maintain speed), and end downwind (after your teammates have tired and fallen behind). To take full advantage of this, you’d probably need very accurate weather reports and flexibility in when you scheduled your trial, and you’d probably still need to make several attempts to get it right. But it could be done. Come to think of it, yet another option would be to run the whole thing with a crosswind, and to wear sail-like clothing that could be used to tack. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/23 "2019-10-13T13:29:40Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’m not sure that’s a good analogy. It’s the artificial pacers breaking air resistance that’s the main problem with this. You can’t have a separately propelled fairing moving ahead of you breaking air resistance in a land speed record either. If this approach were used for something involving higher speeds (cycling, something motorized) then it would be seen as very obviously fake, since aerodynamic drag goes with the square of speed, and the difference would be enormous. It’s hard to analyze how much difference the reduction in aerodynamic drag made for this runner at 13mph, but if this kind of attempt became a common thing, I think it would end up being an exercise in how efficiently you could arrange a bunch of tall guys to run in relay in some kind V-formation ahead of the protected runner, which I think is a bit silly. > > Other runners sacrificing their chances by breaking wind for a protected runner earlier in a race has always been part of racing, so that’s fine. But I’m dismissive of anything where pacers don’t have to participate fully and and run the full distance from the start. I didn’t mean to take the comparison that far. Just pointing out that it’s not a race, it’s an attempt for maximum speed under the best possible conditions. In that respect I don’t care about the pacers, but drafting is going too far, it’s physically assisting the runner. It’s not just about the minor reduction in drag affecting speed, it’s a matter of stamina also, he’s not burning energy as quickly either. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/24 "2019-10-13T13:39:08Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > That’s basically what they did for his previous attempt - **there was a car in front with a giant clock on top of it, ostensibly to show the time but actually it also provided a fair bit of shelter from the wind.** > > Cumbrian is right, which of course is why it’s not an official record time. Still very impressive, and it proves that it probably will be achieved in race conditions in our lifetimes - you just need five or six runners all as good as Kipchoge, then they can act as their own pace setters. Which they did [again.](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/eliud-kipchoge-becomes-first-person-ever-to-run-a-sub-two-hour-marathon/ar-AAIF5UC) Not only a wind break for Kipchoge but a wind break for the pacers (and a double windbreak for Kipchoge) The car was driven at \*exactly \* the needed pace, eliminating the small variances even the best human is subject to. Losing even 5 seconds in a 5K has to be made up and at the pace he’s running, he’s on a razor’s edge of human physiology. He would have to run 10 seconds faster on the next 5K to bring the pace back on schedule and that can push him over the edge into anaerobic running with the attendant build up of lactic acid and increased use of glycogen. **Chronos** : The sail-like clothing would set up greater wind resistance with the high “local” winds caused by the movements of the limbs themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/25 "2019-10-13T13:51:01Z")
What was so high tech about the shoes and are they not allowed in competition? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/26 "2019-10-13T14:31:06Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Just pointing out that it’s not a race, it’s an attempt for maximum speed under the best possible conditions. And my objection to your characterization stands. Providing artificial shielding from aerodynamic drag is not something that’s any more appropriate in a time trial than it is for a mass-start race. It’s artificial fakery, not “the best possible conditions”. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/27 "2019-10-13T14:36:12Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > And my objection to your description stands. Providing artificial shielding from aerodynamic drag is not something that’s any more appropriate in a time trial than it is for a mass-start race. It’s fakery, not “the best possible conditions”. Did you read the part where I said drafting was going too far? I wasn’t saying it was a land speed record, I was pointing out how different that is from racing. To be more specific about this particular event instead of comparing speed records and racing records, I would just call it a stunt. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/28 "2019-10-13T14:45:39Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Did you read the part where I said drafting was going too far? I wasn’t saying it was a land speed record, I was pointing out how different that is from racing. To be more specific about this particular event instead of comparing speed records and racing records, I would just call it a stunt. You originally described it as like “setting a land speed record”, which I disputed, since it’s not true that anything goes for a land speed record either. In your follow-up you appeared to be defending your original characterization, but if your view is now that it’s better described as “a stunt”, then we’re in agreement. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/29 "2019-10-13T14:49:34Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You originally described it as like “setting a land speed record”, which I disputed, since it’s not true that anything goes for a land speed record either. In your follow-up you appeared to be defending your original characterization, but if your view is now that it’s better described as “a stunt”, then we’re in agreement. I said “more like”, clearly indicating I didn’t see them as equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/30 "2019-10-13T14:51:34Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > What was so high tech about the shoes and are they not allowed in competition? I was wondering the same thing. Here’s a [brief article](https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics/nike-zoomx-vaporfly-eliud-kipchoge-ineos-marathon-159-record-explained-a9153191.html) in _The Independent_ that provides a thumbnail sketch. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/31 "2019-10-13T14:54:02Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I said “more like”, clearly indicating I didn’t see them as equivalent. And I suppose an aardvark is _more_ like a duck than a bunch of bananas. But it’s not like a duck, is it? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/32 "2019-10-13T14:59:17Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > And I suppose an aardvark is _more_ like a duck than a bunch of bananas. But it’s not like a duck, is it? Are you having fun? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/33 "2019-10-13T15:06:37Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > And I suppose an aardvark is _more_ like a duck than a bunch of bananas. But it’s not like a duck, is it? BTW: [Drafting is allowed for land speed records](https://www.wired.com/story/denise-mueller-korenek-bike-speed-record-168-mph/). ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/34 "2019-10-13T15:14:19Z")
I’m sure Eliud is crushed that Riemann isn’t sufficiently impressed. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/35 "2019-10-13T15:23:54Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > BTW: [Drafting is allowed for land speed records](https://www.wired.com/story/denise-mueller-korenek-bike-speed-record-168-mph/). It’s allowed for the category of record in which it’s explicitly stated in the name of the record - the motor-paced record. In cycling there are completely separate records kept for “unpaced” and “motor-paced” records, where the latter allows drafting. See here: > **[List of cycling records | History of unpaced records](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cycling_records#History_of_unpaced_records)** > > The International Human Powered Vehicle Association (IHPVA) acts as the sanctioning body for new records in human-powered land, water, and air vehicles. It registers non-motor-paced records (also called unpaced), which means that the bicycle directly faces the wind without any motor-pacing vehicle in front. > On land, the speed record registered by a rider on a 200-meter flying start speed trial was 133.28 km/h (82.82 mph) by the Canadian Sam Whittingham riding the Varna Tempest, a streamliner rec... And that’s because of what I said earlier - at the higher speeds involved in cycling, because aerodynamic drag varies with the square of speed, the difference between these two records is enormous. The difference at the lower speeds involved in running are smaller, but that makes it all the more important to note that this is something in a different category from normal running. And, contrary to what you suggested, the difference is _not_ analogous to the difference between mass-start races and speed record attempts. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/36 "2019-10-13T15:27:38Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It’s allowed for the category of record in which it’s explicitly stated in the name of the record - the motor-paced record. In cycling there are completely separate records kept for “unpaced” and “motor-paced” records, where the latter allows drafting. See here: > > [List of cycling records - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cycling_records#History_of_unpaced_records) > > And that’s because of what I said earlier - at the higher speeds involved in cycling, because aerodynamic drag varies with the square of speed, the difference between these two records is enormous. The difference at the lower speeds involved in running are smaller, but that makes it all the more important to note that this is something in a different category from normal running. And, contrary to what you suggested, the difference is _not_ analogous to the difference between mass-start races and speed record attempts. I didn’t specify any category, and the stunt turns out to be more like a speed record than I even thought. Also, a duck is more like a goose, than a chicken, but not a goose. I don’t think that’s difficult to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/37 "2019-10-13T15:45:46Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I didn’t specify any category… The point is there _is_ no such category in running, there is no such thing as a motor-paced running speed record. And Kipchoge wasn’t trying to establish a separate category for motor-paced running, quite the reverse. Obviously he could have gone all-in and drafted much more efficiently behind a car-mounted fairing and gone faster still if that were his objective. Instead, he was trying to make this look superficially similar to the kind of human drafting that you get in a mass-start road race, to _de_-emphasize the difference, to make the advantage he was gaining less obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/38 "2019-10-13T16:12:34Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > You may be thinking of Kenenisa Bekele - he ran 2:01:41 in the 2019 Berlin Marathon (Sep 29th). > > Desisa’s personal best is 2:04:45. > [@Xema](#): > > Actually 2:01:39 (2018 Berlin marathon). Right on both counts. I swear, judging by the quality and quantity of my cerebral flatulence, my brain must subsist on a diet of raw broccoli and baked beans. Thanks for catching that. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/39 "2019-10-13T16:43:31Z")
So, in a marathon (some of which have nearly a hundred thousand people running), it’s impossible for everyone to start at both the same place and same time. Do the people in the back of the crowd have an earlier finish line than the ones at the front, or does their official time only start when they cross the starting line? Or do they just run a longer race than the folks up front, and nobody cares, because the serious contenders are all positioned up front? And to the relevance to this thread, could a runner start out with “draft runners” who start at the same time as him, but start far enough ahead that their slower time would let him catch up to them? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676/40 "2019-10-13T16:58:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So, in a marathon (some of which have nearly a hundred thousand people running), it’s impossible for everyone to start at both the same place and same time. Do the people in the back of the crowd have an earlier finish line than the ones at the front, or does their official time only start when they cross the starting line? Or do they just run a longer race than the folks up front, and nobody cares, because the serious contenders are all positioned up front? > > And to the relevance to this thread, could a runner start out with “draft runners” who start at the same time as him, but start far enough ahead that their slower time would let him catch up to them? Time starts when you cross the start line. The usual set up is a RFID mat at the start, and one at the finish. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eliud-kipchoge-1-59-40/841676.md?page=3)