# "Elizabeth and God" -- an atheist ponders **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091 "2003-03-13T13:59:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/41 "2003-03-13T22:17:04Z")
Regarding the principle of God’s interference or non-interference in earthly affairs, you might find [this rather snarky opinion piece](http://www.suntimes.com/output/eb-feature/cst-edt-ebert13.html) interesting. It’s about the difference in philosophy between President Bush, who apparently believes he has a give-and-take conversational relationship with God and therefore gets “the right answer” straight from Heaven, and the Catholic authorities urging Bush to temper his drive to war, because _they_ think God is there only to provide strength for people to make _their own decisions._ So it’s not directly on topic, but it does address the philosophical positions rather neatly, if snippily. ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/42 "2003-03-13T22:18:11Z")
This is a difficult question. I don’t know of anyone who believes in a higher power that does not struggle with it. I have taken classes that specifically deal with this topic, only to come up with “we don’t know, but one day we will know.” (In a nutshell. Obviously one can apply many philosophical and religious theories to it.) I never blame atheists for asking these kinds of questions, I ask them myself, and there is no logical, satisfactory answer. I guess that’s why they call it faith. I don’t think it is right when Christians tell anyone they could have anything if they had been better, prayed more, etc. I don’t think God is up there picking and choosing people to do favors for on a whim, but neither do I think he is watching us from afar with disinterest. I don’t know to what extent our everyday lives are pushed or shaped by God. I just have an overall sense that God wants happiness and fulfillment for us, and that he is sad when tragedy strikes, too. I don’t know why God is sad and does not stop it from happening. I get a little of the sense when I see parents allowing their children to make mistakes, even to suffer, when they could have prevented it, but I know the analogy falls short. Are we all learning some sort of universal, cosmic lesson? Maybe. I consider that the reward will be worth the price. (and maybe somehow better for it?) My portrait of God is not of someone there to serve us or who owes us anything, though, and I think that does shape my worldview quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/43 "2003-03-13T22:21:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalhoun \* > \*\*God, Schmod. The kid got lucky. \*\* [ul]:mad: [sup] **Yeah, bah humbug!** [/sup][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/44 "2003-03-13T22:33:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LMM \* > \*\* > The belief that if one is a good Christian (of whatever denomination) one will be rewarded in this life is quite Calvinist, and smacks of predestination, and in my view (and the view of my denomination) is entirely incompatible with the idea of free will. > > \*\* [nitpick] I don’t want to hijack, but I just wanted to point out that is rather an oversimplification of Calvin’s views of being rewarded, and I’m not sure what predestination has to do with being rewarded. Also, that he did not teach that humans do not have free will. There are also denominations that teach predestination and free will. We are very accepting of the paradox:)[/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/45 "2003-03-13T22:35:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mars Horizon \* > \*\*To quote someone I am rather fond of “Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.” > Mars \*\* [ul]😕 [sup] **Are you quoting your wife?** [/sup][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/46 "2003-03-13T22:59:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you believe God literally and personally intervened in her rescue? Was it because of all the intense praying? Which raises the opposite question: if people hadn’t prayed would Elizabeth have not been found? If so, this implies God was holding Elizabeth hostage until the prayers were delivered. God might even be indictable as an accessory after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/47 "2003-03-14T00:09:41Z")
Neurotik, Physical suffering obviously matters to human beings and therefore it should matter to a compassionate god. Since he can easily prevent natural disasters without infringing on human free will it’s hard to see why he doesn’t do so if he is truly compassionate. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/48 "2003-03-14T00:44:07Z")
Nonsense. Would you shelter your small child from every hurt feeling or little scrape? Or would you recognize that those things are necessary to growing up? Natural disasters and death and even horrible mortal pain, assuming there is an eternal afterlife, would be the equivalent. Of course, looking back through the thread, I see that **lekatt** is agreeing with me. That might make me automatically wrong. Rats. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/49 "2003-03-14T01:48:09Z")
Another Mormon checking in. Though it’s not official doctrine, I find the entry in the [LDS Bible Dictionary on prayer](http://scriptures.lds.org/bdp/prayer) particularly well-worded: > [@](#): > > The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/50 "2003-03-14T01:57:24Z")
“Natural disasters and death and even horrible mortal pain, assuming there is an eternal afterlife, would be the equivalent.” I disagree. What about someone who is orphaned because of a natural diasaster and whose whole life is ruined because of that. That is hardly equivalent to a “hurt feeling” or “scrape” even if there is an eternal afterlife. Not to mention the fact that massive natural disasters like famine undermine the moral fabric of society about which God cares even according to your assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/51 "2003-03-14T02:01:52Z")
\*\* “The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but that are made conditional on our asking for them.”\*\* OK. “Yes, I was all ready to save your child. But you _didn’t ask for the favor_ and therefore validate your belief in my existence, so tough luck!” Words cannot express how bizarre I find this mindset. The ancient Greeks were much more upfront about their vision of imperfect, quarreling and sometimes petty gods. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/52 "2003-03-14T02:23:47Z")
I did something in this thread that I seldom do – skimmed by a bunch of no-doubt-intelligent posts by many fellow dopers. Because on this one I have the answer pretty solid, albeit IMHO – but it’s an answer I think people can live with – and that many of us had occasion to participate in, three months ago. Quite simply, God does answer prayers – but the normal way He does this is predominantly through the decent and generous behavior of good human beings, many of whom don’t even believe in Him. He’s not above arranging for a coincidence to happen, as in the oft-repeated account of the woman whose car broke down on a deserted back road and was rescued by an auto mechanic who felt the impulse to take a ride that included that road, or my boy Jay feeling the impulse to come visit me at the time I had my heart attack. I find people who always attribute any good thing that happens to God’s intervention, with no thought for what actually happened to bring about that good thing, to be simplistic in their prayer. But yeah, I think He had a hand in it. He arranged the world in a manner such that Elizabeth and her kidnapper would happen to encounter a woman whom He endowed with the wisdom and memory to have noticed the “missing child” poster and kept Elizabeth in mind, to have bought a cell phone, and to have the presence of mind to call in the incident – and to have motivated you to question the opinion of the family that He did it all by His lonesome. He worked through good people, as He nearly always does. And He created a world in which coincidence “not only can happen but is required to happen.” People were praying in my behalf back in December. And others were moved to help me out of my predicament. That’s both the goodness in human nature, and (IMHO) the wisdom of the deity who created humans with a good nature in the first place. And I cannot thank either enough for it. Does that approach make sense to you? Not necessarily as the explanation, but as how a reasonable person who believes in God _(those of you who think that last phrase to be an oxymoron are courteously invited to open a Pit thread at random and consider the first few choice comments directed at you! ;))_ might see it? ---
**Author:** ![Shaolinrabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/53 "2003-03-14T03:44:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalhoun \* > \*\*LMM said, “And finally, Eve, sometimes it is mysterious, and sometimes we just don’t know.” > > No, actually, you NEVER know. You can’t know. It’s unknowable. You can hope. You can have faith. But you will never KNOW. \*\* Sure we will. Wait around, everyone KNOWS eventually one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/54 "2003-03-14T04:25:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > OK. “Yes, I was all ready to save your child. But you _didn’t ask for the favor_ and therefore validate your belief in my existence, so tough luck!” > > Words cannot express how bizarre I find this mindset. That is apparently due to your refusal or inability to comprehend the issue entirely. If you’re seriously discussing this, you must understand that the really important thing is to “save” someone in the eternal sense, not in any mortal one. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Additionally, while you may enjoy the straw man (that prayer and response to it is for validating belief), it has no weight in a rational discussion. Lastly, prayers for others are inherently limited, because God will not deprive anyone of his or her moral agency (free will). Even that of kidnappers. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/55 "2003-03-14T04:48:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emarkp \* > **Additionally, while you may enjoy the straw man (that prayer and response to it is for validating belief), it has no weight in a rational discussion.** A rational discussion of prayer? An oxymoron if I ever saw one. Prayer is based on faith, not reason. You can have a spiritual discussion of prayer, but it defies reason. Reason cannot be used to justify the purely spiritual; that’s why these debates always end up right where the began. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/56 "2003-03-14T06:01:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emarkp \* > \*\*That is apparently due to your refusal or inability to comprehend the issue entirely. If you’re seriously discussing this, you must understand that the really important thing is to “save” someone in the eternal sense, not in any mortal one. > …Additionally, while you may enjoy the straw man (that prayer and response to it is for validating belief), it has no weight in a rational discussion. > \*\* (putting the most positive face on it) You misunderstand me. What I was commenting on was this statement: **“The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant, but _that are made conditional on our asking for them_.”** (note italics). The concept I have a problem with is that a benevolent deity is ready to confer a benefit, but withholds it solely because the intended recipient did not make a specific prayerful appeal. This strikes me as being part of the human construct that God demands recognition/obeisance from his flock. It would be a rather petty way for the All-Seeing, All-Knowing to behave. O.K.? “Thou shalt not wield a straw man to battle an imagined straw man.” \*“Arguing religion with the faithful, Mr. Jackmannii? Come along now, the Doctor is in.” ---
**Author:** ![246810](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/3bc359/32.png) [@246810](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/246810)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/57 "2003-03-14T06:18:04Z")
All I can say about this is that the truth is in the bible. You know that humans can be very dumb and make stupid comments by there own emotions at the time. You come one this discussion web page and ask questions, and make comments. Just take the time and read the bible for your self, but if you have your mind made up that God is not real, or the bible is not true. Then I personally don’t see how it will profit you to read it. Because your just going to judge it. Even what I am saying; I don’t know much about anything. But all I can say is read the bible. The reason I say this is because, every time I read the bible I learn a lot. A lot of the questions in my heart, and in my mind are answered. What can be more satisfying than that. The one thing that I have to say to all of you is, if you accept that Jesus Christ is real, and is the son of God, and came to die for all of our sins. Then you will go to heaven, and not suffer the endless pain of hell. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/58 "2003-03-14T06:23:36Z")
You cannot use reason to argue a man out of a position he didn’t use reason to get to in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/59 "2003-03-14T13:43:43Z")
Hey, 246810, you’re judging the bible, too. Just in a different way than some of us. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091/60 "2003-03-14T13:54:29Z")
But, **Polycarp** , you can’t believe that Polly Klaas wasn’t prayed for just as hard? Or Adam Walsh? Or all the other people who vanished or got cancer, etc.? Why would God rescue Elizabeth and not all these other people? The Smarts had more people praying for her, 24 hours a day? It just makes no sense to me, at all; it seems totally random: like **Kalhoun** said, 'the kid got lucky." [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-and-god-an-atheist-ponders/161091.md?page=4)