# Elizabeth Warren 2020 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 17, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800 "2019-08-17T17:03:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/61 "2019-08-19T01:56:51Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Thing is that those items have little to nothing to do with who is paying the bill or how it gets paid. > > Well run large groups will run … well. Coordinating and facilitating care. Some large groups and smaller pracowill be more disjointed, even as they might have other pluses. That will be true whatever the payment scheme. I think not. Single payer is intrinsically NOT a patchwork of multiple medical practitioners each taking some but not all medical insurance, and employers who offer some but not all possible medical insurance plans. If there’s only one they don’t have to have you fill out the paperwork for it. You’ll never get switched due to your employer deciding policy #2 is a better deal for the corporation. I don’t know about the rest of you folks but I would pay a premium $$$ to be free of the administrative overhead bullshit. I just want to walk in and get treated. Sign the acknowledgment and that’s it. And that IS how it was when I had Medicaid, btw. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/62 "2019-08-19T02:06:11Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I’m going to go out on a limb and boldly declare that a fusion syndicalist/fascist takeover of every major corporation in the United States is worse than building/not-building any wall. This scans like a fistfight between Miles Davis and Lonnie Liston Smith, and I for one am ready to see this matter settled once and for all. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/63 "2019-08-19T03:21:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > If you have a need or a desire to toss personal barbas, take it to The BBQ Pit, not here. > > [/Moderating] I don’t know what a “barbas” is, but I was calling into question Trump’s lack of intelligence and rationality, not Shodan’s. So my comment was actually less of a personal barbas than Shodan’s thread-shitting shot at the Democratic voters in this thread was. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/64 "2019-08-19T12:22:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **sps49sd** : > > Are you addressing that to me, mister moderator, sir? Maybe you could address that query to the US Department of Justice. To be absolutely clear: I am a moderator on this message board, but I am not a moderator in the Elections forum, and even if I were, I would make it clear whenever I was speaking as a moderator. Every post I’ve made in this thread, and in most other political discussions, has been as just another member of this board, and you are not required to pay me any more heed than any other member of this board. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/65 "2019-08-19T13:11:04Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I think not. Single payer … has nothing to do with radiology being in the same building. What you now focus on is the issue of panels and of staying within network. The inconvenience of not being able to go to whatever doctor you want when you want, whether seeing a spine surgeon for a week of low back pain is a good idea or not. FWIW the successes of the ACA in delivering better care at lower cost have occurred not by paying less but by way of encouraging these panels to work more efficiently in more coordinated teams. Eliminating panels completely is not something that should occur in a new system and is not automatically part of single payer. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/66 "2019-08-19T14:58:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That’s exactly what his link shows. People are mostly positive on their own coverage, negative on “the system”. That’s why taking on the system is good politics but not simultaneously taking away anyone’s current plan is not. Well, as Darth Cheney is supposed to have said in response to the debacle of the Iraq War, “You can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.” > [@octopus](#): > > I’m surprised Warren’s support for a wealth tax isn’t immediately disqualifying in the minds of rational voters. > [@Shodan](#): > > She’s running for the Democratic nomination. > > Regards, > Shodan Huh. I don’t remember Statler and Waldorf getting a spinoff from the Muppet Show… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/67 "2019-08-19T15:10:52Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > Well, as Darth Cheney is supposed to have said in response to the debacle of the Iraq War, “You can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.” Yeah, but when you’re selling the idea to the public you don’t talk about all the eggs you’re going to break – you only talk about that delicious “welcomed as liberators” omelette. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/68 "2019-08-19T16:01:39Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/69 "2019-08-19T16:32:48Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > [Elizabeth Warren’s Batty Plan to Nationalize Everything | National Review](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/2018/08/elizabeth-warren-plan-nationalize-everything-woos-hard-left/amp/) From your link: > [@](#): > > Headline: Elizabeth Warren’s Batty Plan to Nationalize . . . Everything :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Under Senator Warren’s proposal, no business with more than $1 billion in revenue would be permitted to legally operate without permission from the federal government. What does this even mean? > [@](#): > > The federal government would then **dictate to these businesses the composition of their boards** … From Wikipedia on [Accountable Capitalism Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accountable_Capitalism_Act): > [@](#): > > It would require that **employees elect 40% of a board of directors** of any corporation with over $1 billion in tax receipts, and that 75% of shareholders and directors must approve any political spending. Clearly the National Review is full of it here. That article makes some good points about the Act. It doesn’t have to resort to this crap. An alternative view from [Vox](https://www.vox.com/2018/8/15/17683022/elizabeth-warren-accountable-capitalism-corporations). > [@](#): > > Warren’s plan starts from the premise that corporations that claim the legal rights of personhood should be legally required to accept the moral obligations of personhood. > … > […Warren will] focus on how to prioritize workers in the American economic system while leaving businesses as the primary driver of it. And on, with fairly detailed description of the act and what it hopes to accomplish, for anyone who’s interested in reading it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/70 "2019-08-19T16:47:58Z")
In regard to the above, from the Accountable Capitalism Act: > [@](#): > > (2) FAILURE TO OBTAIN CHARTER.—An entity to which paragraph (1) applies and that fails to obtain a charter from the Office as required under that paragraph shall not be treated as a corporation, body corporate, body politic, joint-stock company, or limited liability company, as applicable, for the purposes of Federal law during the period beginning on the date on which the entity is required to obtain a charter under that paragraph and ending on the date on which the entity obtains the charter. I assume this is what the National Review link was referring to. Lawyers, or anyone for that matter, does this in fact mean that no corporation would be “permitted to legally operate without permission from the federal government.”? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/71 "2019-08-19T17:15:48Z")
IANAL, but it seems it would just strip the company of protections that being a corporation or limited liability companies enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![hopesperson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@hopesperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hopesperson)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/72 "2019-08-19T18:43:17Z")
It’s safe to say that failure to be treated as its legal entity of choice (i.e., corporation, llc, etc.) could be disastrous for a large company. As it stands, choice of entity is determined by filings made with secretaries of state or similar state-level bureaucracies, but as long as the filing complies with statutory formalities and companies continue to make simple annual update filings and pay taxes there is generally no way as a practical matter to “fail” to obtain or maintain a charter. To add, I am not familiar with the Act other than as described in the last couple of posts. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/73 "2019-08-19T18:43:48Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > And on, with fairly detailed description of the act and what it hopes to accomplish, for anyone who’s interested in reading it. I read it, along with the wiki article on the proposal. It sounds batshit insane. From mandating the composition of corporate boards, to this: > [@](#): > > The conceit tying together Warren’s ideas is that if corporations are going to have the legal rights of persons, they should be expected to act like decent citizens who uphold their fair share of the social contract and not act like sociopaths whose sole obligation is profitability — as is currently conventional in American business thinking. There is no requirement that individuals act like decent citizens, but Warren wants to create a duty for corporations to act a certain way? The idea that Warren thinks tinkering with the economy in this gigantic way is a good idea is absurd. Then there is this from the Vox article: > [@](#): > > Instead of advocating for expensive new social programs like free college or health care, she’s introducing a bill Wednesday, the Accountable Capitalism Act, that would redistribute trillions of dollars from rich executives and shareholders to the middle class — without costing a dime. Naïveté is the most charitable way to characterize this. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/74 "2019-08-19T18:51:18Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > There is no requirement that individuals act like decent citizens, but Warren wants to create a duty for corporations to act a certain way? The idea that Warren thinks tinkering with the economy in this gigantic way is a good idea is absurd. Yes there is. There are many laws on the books dictating how people are supposed to be decent citizens. Such as, not killing, not stealing, not dumping hazardous materials improperly, etc… Well right now the economy is not working at all for many people, maybe most people, at least not as well as it seems to be working for those of means. I mean the last election was won largely based on appeals to those being left behind by the economy. I think what’s naive is continuing to do everything the way we have been and thinking somehow it’s going to just magically improve for everyone. You may think concentration of wealth and wage stagnation are not problems, but that doesn’t make them not problems to the electorate at large. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/75 "2019-08-19T18:57:30Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Yes there is. There are many laws on the books dictating how people are supposed to be decent citizens. Such as, not killing, not stealing, not dumping hazardous materials improperly, etc… There is certainly overlap with decency and certain prohibited actions, but there is no law regarding acting decent. For example, I’d say if you witness a murder, it’d be a decent thing to do to report it to the police. It’s not a requirement. > [@](#): > > Well right now the economy is not working at all for many people, maybe most people, at least not as well as it seems to be working for those of means. I mean the last election was won largely based on appeals to those being left behind by the economy. I think what’s naive is continuing to do everything the way we have been and thinking somehow it’s going to just magically improve for everyone. You may think concentration of wealth and wage stagnation are not problems, but that doesn’t make them not problems to the electorate at large. Do you think it’s possible to redistribute trillions of dollars without costing a dime? In any event, I’m sure lots of folks think this type of economic action is great. I hope she makes this the centerpiece of her campaign. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/76 "2019-08-19T19:04:33Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > There is no requirement that individuals act like decent citizens, but Warren wants to create a duty for corporations to act a certain way? It’s true that there is no requirement that individuals act this way. But it’s not crazy to note that corporations collectively act sociopathic because they are less subject to reputational pressures that humans are (feelings of shame, guilt, reciprocal obligation, etc). I don’t know exactly what the solution is, but I see it as a problem that corporations are amoral unfeeling golems that people utilize to do socially hostile and irresponsible things, yet we treat corporations as if they’re humans and we allow them to accumulate astronomical amounts of unaccountable power. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/77 "2019-08-19T19:06:14Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > There is certainly overlap with decency and certain prohibited actions, but there is no law regarding acting decent. For example, I’d say if you witness a murder, it’d be a decent thing to do to report it to the police. It’s not a requirement. I think you are putting too much weight into the word ‘decent’. That, as far as I know, is not a legal term. Here’s an example: [https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/steel-plant-dumps-cyanide-into-little-calumet-river-killing-fish-and-shutting-down-indiana-dunes-546616351.html](https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/steel-plant-dumps-cyanide-into-little-calumet-river-killing-fish-and-shutting-down-indiana-dunes-546616351.html) I would posit that this isn’t acting decently, and if they aren’t already legally in trouble for this, then they damn well should be. There are many ways in which corporations harm us and our country in the name of seeking profit. I don’t think its wrong to try to rein some of that in. > [@Bone](#): > > Do you think it’s possible to redistribute trillions of dollars without costing a dime? I think it’s possible to do a lot of things to help us get off of this self reinforcing spiral of wealth concentration and wage stagnation, but I don’t think this question is helpful to the debate. Its an attempt to stifle the conversation by essentially declaring any attempts to address the issues that many many people have with the current economy as simply taking money from some and directly giving it to others. As far as I know nobody is literally talking about taking Bill Gates money and directly giving it to poor people in the way this question implies. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/78 "2019-08-19T19:29:21Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I think you are putting too much weight into the word ‘decent’. That, as far as I know, is not a legal term. Here’s an example: > > [https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/steel-plant-dumps-cyanide-into-little-calumet-river-killing-fish-and-shutting-down-indiana-dunes-546616351.html](https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/steel-plant-dumps-cyanide-into-little-calumet-river-killing-fish-and-shutting-down-indiana-dunes-546616351.html) > > I would posit that this isn’t acting decently, and if they aren’t already legally in trouble for this, then they damn well should be. There are many ways in which corporations harm us and our country in the name of seeking profit. I don’t think its wrong to try to rein some of that in. > > I think it’s possible to do a lot of things to help us get off of this self reinforcing spiral of wealth concentration and wage stagnation, but I don’t think this question is helpful to the debate. Its an attempt to stifle the conversation by essentially declaring any attempts to address the issues that many many people have with the current economy as simply taking money from some and directly giving it to others. As far as I know nobody is literally talking about taking Bill Gates money and directly giving it to poor people in the way this question implies. Wage stagnation won’t be solved with wealth redistribution. Global trade and global migration is what devalues domestic labor. Nothing Warren proposes will help. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/79 "2019-08-19T19:34:06Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > It’s true that there is no requirement that individuals act this way. But it’s not crazy to note that corporations collectively act sociopathic because they are less subject to reputational pressures that humans are (feelings of shame, guilt, reciprocal obligation, etc). > > I don’t know exactly what the solution is, but I see it as a problem that corporations are amoral unfeeling golems that people utilize to do socially hostile and irresponsible things, yet we treat corporations as if they’re humans and we allow them to accumulate astronomical amounts of unaccountable power. To say that corporations act sociopathic is anthropomorphizing corporations in an odd way. We don’t treat corps as humans exactly, but corporate personhood is useful in some contexts and not others. Corps don’t vote for example. But to the extent that corporations act as a collective entity representing the group of owners known as shareholders, has benefits in a way that other legal forms of business do not. If this has been extended in ways that are ultimately not desirable, I think it’s fine to make changes. But forcing corporations to have a duty to society at large and acting decent is a silly extension of that idea. > [@Airbeck](#): > > I think you are putting too much weight into the word ‘decent’. That, as far as I know, is not a legal term. Here’s an example: > > [https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/steel-plant-dumps-cyanide-into-little-calumet-river-killing-fish-and-shutting-down-indiana-dunes-546616351.html](https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/steel-plant-dumps-cyanide-into-little-calumet-river-killing-fish-and-shutting-down-indiana-dunes-546616351.html) > > I would posit that this isn’t acting decently, and if they aren’t already legally in trouble for this, then they damn well should be. There are many ways in which corporations harm us and our country in the name of seeking profit. I don’t think its wrong to try to rein some of that in. I’m not familiar with that specific incident, but in general if a corporation (or anyone) pollutes as is described, there would be a host of environmental laws that would be triggered. Not sure what this is supposed to be an example of, but we have and do utilize the means to prohibit this type of illegal activity. > [@](#): > > I think it’s possible to do a lot of things to help us get off of this self reinforcing spiral of wealth concentration and wage stagnation, but I don’t think this question is helpful to the debate. Its an attempt to stifle the conversation by essentially declaring any attempts to address the issues that many many people have with the current economy as simply taking money from some and directly giving it to others. As far as I know nobody is literally talking about taking Bill Gates money and directly giving it to poor people in the way this question implies. I’m not contesting the redistribution component of this. I’m saying the idea that this can be done without costing a dime is farcical. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800/80 "2019-08-19T19:39:13Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I read it, along with the wiki article on the proposal. It sounds batshit insane. From mandating the composition of corporate boards, to this: > > There is no requirement that individuals act like decent citizens, but Warren wants to create a duty for corporations to act a certain way? The idea that Warren thinks tinkering with the economy in this gigantic way is a good idea is absurd. > > Then there is this from the Vox article: > > Naïveté is the most charitable way to characterize this. I quote Wiki again, regarding the “big ticket” items in the bill: > [@](#): > > It would require that employees elect 40% of a board of directors of any corporation with over $1 billion in tax receipts, and that 75% of shareholders and directors must approve any political spending. Corporations with revenue over $1 billion would be required to obtain a federal corporate charter. I don’t think saying employees have a 40% say in who is on the board is mandating the composition of that board. It just means they have a say in it. As far as this being “batshit insane”, I’m not sure why you would characterize it as such. Unorthodox perhaps, but not over-the-top insane by any means or “gigantic”, as you say. In any case, far from being an economist, I was interested in this type of discussion, which is why I posted the original Vox link, and will follow this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-2020/838800.md?page=5)