# Elizabeth Warren and the Presidency **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 24, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838 "2013-03-24T19:07:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/281 "2013-08-16T03:50:07Z")
THe last President to have no business or military experience or governing experience was Warren Harding. He took his vast experience as a journalist and became widely regarded as the worst President ever. The next most recent President with Warren/Obama/Harding levels of inexperience was Abraham Lincoln. But Lincoln is an exception that proves the rule. While a great President, his greatness was a product of his circumstances. He was the right man for the right time. His management skills were negligible and actually hampered the war effort. Now, if we’re going to go to war against the great nation of JP Goldman Bankistan, Warren’s the one you want. If you want the government to actually work with a minimum of dysfunction, you need someone who has proven they can make it work. BTW, after Lincoln, we have that giant, Franklin Pierce, and that’s it for Presidents with no management experience. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/282 "2013-08-16T06:07:01Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It does if you haven’t gained the necessary experience first. Says who? Not the voters, for sure. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/283 "2013-08-16T06:13:50Z")
Reality. Now it’s true that the office of President as originally conceived didn’t require extraordinary men. The duties are not all that demanding as originally written, and sure enough most Presidents before WWII spent as much time on vacation, mostly out of touch, as they did in the White House actually working. But with a complex government with a vast bureaucracy comes the need for someone with the necessary skills to manage it. We know what happens when the President doesn’t bother. We get weekly stories of failure in the executive branch. Now the voters may tolerate that consistent record of incompetence, or like many of you, choose not to blame the President for his own administration’s failures. That’s everyone’s right in a republic. However, denying it’s happening is just denying reality. What we’re seeing in the federal government today is an uncontrollable, unaccountable bureaucracy that can’t do much right, and with a political situation where the President is unwilling to take responsibility and his supporters are unwilling to make him take responsibility, it’s not going to get better anytime soon. The thing I don’t understand is why his supporters would allow such damage to be done to the idea of activist government. Every negative story helps my side. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/284 "2013-08-16T06:15:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Reality. Now it’s true that the office of President as originally conceived didn’t require extraordinary men. The duties are not all that demanding as originally written, and sure enough most Presidents before WWII spent as much time on vacation, mostly out of touch, as they did in the White House actually working. > > But with a complex government with a vast bureaucracy comes the need for someone with the necessary skills to manage it. We know what happens when the President doesn’t bother. We get weekly stories of failure in the executive branch. As opposed to the daily stories of the Bush years. How many of those stories are true failures or just the machinations of the GOP? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/285 "2013-08-16T06:18:59Z")
Most of them were failures. So now we have more than 12 years of government running amok without accountability. Let’s not make this the new normal. The public is down on government as it is. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/286 "2013-08-16T06:27:02Z")
Now GWB, remember what I said earlier about how governors perform about as well as they did at the state level as at President? He’s a prime example. This is a guy who failed at every management job he ever had. Sure, he had loads of experience, and a consistent track record ranging from mediocrity to failure. If his name wasn’t Bush he would never have been considered. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/287 "2013-08-16T13:20:33Z")
Wait, so now we’re saying that business experience is relevant? If it is, it’s negatively so, in that those with business experience seem to make worse presidents, not better. They keep on insisting on “running the government like a business”, which usually seems to mean “Bankrupt it and gut the corpse to put together a golden parachute”. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/288 "2013-08-16T13:33:59Z")
I don’t think we’ve ever had a true businessman in the Presidency before. It’s usually either someone who made some money in between holding political offices using their connections, or the son of a rich businessman who couldn’t be trusted with the family business so his dad bought him the Presidency. But a geniunely successful businessman like Romney I would have trusted, and I’d trust Larry Ellison or Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos or either of the Koch brothers, at least in terms of being able to competently manage a large organization. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/289 "2013-08-16T14:10:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t think we’ve ever had a true businessman in the Presidency before. It’s usually either someone who made some money in between holding political offices using their connections, or the son of a rich businessman who couldn’t be trusted with the family business so his dad bought him the Presidency. > > But a geniunely successful businessman like Romney I would have trusted, and I’d trust Larry Ellison or Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos or either of the Koch brothers, at least in terms of being able to competently manage a large organization. That worked real well for Romney, [start reading here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governorship_of_Mitt_Romney#Cuts_in_funding_to_local_communities) Taxes and fees went up all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/290 "2013-08-16T14:17:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t think we’ve ever had a true businessman in the Presidency before. It’s usually either someone who made some money in between holding political offices using their connections, or the son of a rich businessman who couldn’t be trusted with the family business so his dad bought him the Presidency. Herbert Hoover was a spectacularly successful businessman. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/291 "2013-08-16T18:18:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Obama-Senator > GWB-Governor > Clinton-Governor > Bush 41-VP, CIA director, UN rep > Reagan-Governor > Carter-Governor > Nixon-VP > LBJ-Senator, VP > Kennedy-Senator > Eisenhower-general > Truman-Senator, VP > FDR-Governor, Naval secretary > > I count only four of the 11 post-New Deal Presidents as Senators, and Obama is the only one to lack other relevant experience, like military(Kennedy) or business experience. > > Obama went from the ivory tower, to community activism, to state legislature, to federal legislature, to the Presidency. At no point did he acquire any leadership or management skills. Bush 41 was a Congressman, which I counted as national legislative experience. He ran for Senate, too. Nixon was a Senator. So we’re back up to 6 of 11. Only four governors. VP’s run nothing larger than their offices. Before that? Hoover. Who was a self-made millionaire as a businessman, as Tom Scud noted, and failed utterly as a president. Before him Coolidge, Governor, and Harding, Senator. There was an odd little cluster of Governors from Reagan to Bush. The historic importance of that disappears with a puff when the larger picture is examined. I’ve been focusing on your statement of very few Senators being elected because it has no foundation in fact, cannot be used to show superiority of Senators v. Governors, and shows a blithe ignorance of actual history. As does your statement on businessmen. Why should I accept any of your opinions on Obama’s leadership when I can’t accept any of the supposed facts you are using as a base for those opinions? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/292 "2013-08-16T18:48:53Z")
What counts is what adaher wants to count when he wants to count it. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/293 "2013-08-16T18:56:48Z")
Facts are what you feel REAL HARD. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/294 "2013-08-16T18:58:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wait, so now we’re saying that business experience is relevant? If it is, it’s negatively so, in that those with business experience seem to make worse presidents, not better. They keep on insisting on “running the government like a business”, which usually seems to mean “Bankrupt it and gut the corpse to put together a golden parachute”. I thought the entire PURPOSE of government was to do what was for the greater social good, but not profitable for companies? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/295 "2013-08-16T19:21:59Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Please let Rand Paul run. Please let Rand Paul run. Please let Rand Paul run. Please let Rand Paul run. Please let Rand Paul run. Please let Rand Paul run. Please let Rand Paul run. With Ted Cruz as his running mate. Or maybe **Governor** Ricky Perry. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/296 "2013-08-16T23:33:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > THe last President to have no business or military experience or governing experience was Warren Harding. He took his vast experience as a journalist and became widely regarded as the worst President ever. Harding was a “journalist”, but it’s not like he was a newspaper reporter, but instead an owner and manager. He bought a struggling newspaper on the verge of bankruptcy and turned it into the most successful newspaper in the county. As the New York Times put it in Harding’s obituary > [@](#): > > When Harding relinquished his control of The Star, in June, 1923, it was a prosperous newspaper, with the largest circulation of any paper in a city of 30,000 in the Middle West. It had a full telegraphic service, the latest type of perfecting press, eight linotype machines and fifty employees. Largely through Harding’s efforts, factories and railroad shops went to Marion during the years he ran the paper, converting the one-time farming town into an important manufacturing city. People don’t hesitate to call Rupert Murdoch a “businessman”, even though his line is the media. So, why deny that label to Harding? As far as Pierce, he certainly had military experience, commanding a brigade in the battle for Mexico City during the Mexican War. ---
**Author:** ![nonniequest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/6bbea6/32.png) [@nonniequest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonniequest)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/297 "2013-08-16T23:35:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > No you wouldn’t, because even if such a person does exist, you’re not going to find him. People with savant-like qualities aren’t generally good at convincing people to pick them, and that’s what we’re talking about if we’re talking about someone who can do something amazingly well just by reading about it a lot. > > We’ve seen precisely this scenario already. A bunch of Ivy League geniuses decided to micromanage a war in the 60s and failed miserably. Their theories in domestic policy didn’t go as they expected either. Bill Clinton, on the other hand, had an excellent grasp of what was possible, how to make things work properly, and how to prioritize his time. Even Jimmy Carter, a terrible President, wasn’t incompetent on the domestic front due to his experience as both a businessman and a governor. His most enduring positive legacies are his domestic policies. > > Governors are simply a better bet than hoping that your junior Senator that says all the things you want to hear has what it takes. We keep on hearing about how Obama can’t get the important stuff done because of Republican intransigence. Yet Clinton did just fine. That’s because Clinton understood diplomacy and governance. Obama understands neither. He’s an activist and remains nothing more than an activist. He does have many of the raw qualities of good leadership, an analytic mind, the ability to get people to follow him, the ability to inspire, and yes, his academic background, which is an asset when combined with tangible experience. But he was elevated too fast. He also lacks any kind of ability to make friends. Clinton had warmth, as did Reagan. Is there any world leader that Obama is close to? That same coldness permeates everything he tries to accomplish with Republicans, and he blows it with them even more by giving partisan speeches in public while negotiating with them in private. You are completely disregarding the complete and utter racism that has enveloped the Right wing majority of our Congress and our country. Whether or not Obama has enough experience as a leader or not is moot in the face of the fact that the Repugnants in congress are unwilling, And have said as much, repeatedly, that they will make his presidency a complete and utter failure. They will pass no laws or court any of candidates for positions. The constituency of the Right wing nuts like adaher, are the same ones that characterized Obama as a bone in his nose Kenyan with no real birth certificate… Shame on you. He may have said My Way or the Highway but it was only after Boner and his Majority repugnants said that people of color and immigrants would get nowhere in their government. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/298 "2013-08-17T00:33:28Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > That worked real well for Romney, [start reading here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governorship_of_Mitt_Romney#Cuts_in_funding_to_local_communities) > Taxes and fees went up all over the place. Romney owed a fair amount of his success to getting the government to pay for things - he made the Olympics work by lobbying the federal government for vast sums, and when he ran Massachusetts he likewise offloaded costs from state to federal government. If he ran the federal government, who would he get to bail him out? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/299 "2013-08-17T01:07:11Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Why should I accept any of your opinions on Obama’s leadership when I can’t accept any of the supposed facts you are using as a base for those opinions? Because you didn’t pay attention. My argument was that it’s not good to elevate someone directly from the Senate to the Presidency with no executive experience. And sure enough, we get yet more headlines today about how Obama has no idea whatsoever about what is going on in his own administration. His comments on the NSA were completely ignorant. It’s amazing how easily the media finds things out that he never bothers to. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/300 "2013-08-17T01:08:18Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > I thought the entire PURPOSE of government was to do what was for the greater social good, but not profitable for companies? Government also needs to be solvent and as efficient as possible. Things that many politicians completely overlook. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838.md?page=16)