# Elizabeth Warren and the Presidency **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 24, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838 "2013-03-24T19:07:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/321 "2013-08-18T04:01:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, so now you’re blaming Obama for passing the Patriot Act? No, I’m blaming him for the NSA’s incompetent and often illegal enforcement of the Patriot Act. Again, you act as if the President is legislator-in-chief. Hey, it wasn’t passed while he was in office, so it doesn’t matter how he carries the law out! ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/322 "2013-08-18T04:02:59Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > With so much manufactured outrage, it’s hard to tell which one you’re referring to. > From your link. > > So some of this goes back before Obama was sworn in. > I see nothing in the article that mentions involvement by the White House. > > i also don’t see where Democrats are specifically investigating as opposed to being members of the committee doing the investigation. Again with the, “The President isn’t responsible for what goes on in his own administration.” I guess he’s not even responsible for misleading Congress and the public. He either lied, or was ignorant and should have not been talking about things he doesn’t understand. I see we’re also still arguing for an independent, unaccountable, unelected bureacracy as our lords and masters. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/323 "2013-08-18T04:27:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Again with the, “The President isn’t responsible for what goes on in his own administration.” > > I guess he’s not even responsible for misleading Congress and the public. He either lied, or was ignorant and should have not been talking about things he doesn’t understand. > > I see we’re also still arguing for an independent, unaccountable, unelected bureacracy as our lords and masters. Stop fucking twisting what I said. I never said he wasn’t responsible. That article is about mistakes the NSA has made. There’s nothing to suggest Obama’s involvement in enforcing an Act that was the darling of the right-wing. And if it’s illegal, it’s the doing of the GOP in getting it passed in the first place. Not so much fun when the shoe starts kicking your own ass, is it? Quote where Obama lied to the public or Congress. Proven lies, not your own made-up shit. There’s nothing in that article that says what you claim. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/324 "2013-08-18T04:45:00Z")
He told Congress that there are protections in place to make sure everything is done in accordance to the law. He also said that Congress had been kept fully informed. Both were not true. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/325 "2013-08-18T04:47:45Z")
And of course there’s this laughably untrue statement: > **[PolitiFact - Barack Obama says the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2013/jun/21/barack-obama/barack-obama-says-foreign-intelligence-surveillanc/)** > > President Barack Obama has taken a lot of criticism from both friend and foe in the wake of recent disclosures about how Barack Obama says the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court ‘is transparent’ Rose: “So I hear you saying I have no problem with what NSA has been doing.” Obama: “Well, let me finish, because I don’t. … (The FBI has) to go to the FISA court with probable cause and ask for a warrant.” Rose: “But has FISA court turned down any request?” Obama: “First of all, Charlie, the number of requests are surprisingly small, number one. Number two – folks don’t go with a query unless they’ve got a pretty good suspicion.” Rose: “Should this be transparent in some way?” Obama: “It is transparent, that’s why we set up the FISA court. The whole point of my concern before I was president – because some people say well, Obama was this raving liberal before, now he’s Dick Cheney. Dick Cheney sometimes says, ‘Yes, you know, he took it all, lock stock and barrel.’ My concern has always been not that we shouldn’t do intelligence gathering to prevent terrorism but rather are we setting up a system of checks and balances?” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/326 "2013-08-18T04:52:09Z")
And finally, when he claimed that Congress was providing oversight: > **[Members of Congress denied access to basic information about NSA | Glenn...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/04/congress-nsa-denied-access)** > > Glenn Greenwald: Documents provided by two House members demonstrate how they are blocked from exercising any oversight over domestic surveillance Congress was actually being denied access. Was that in the Patriot Act? Or was it in violation of said Patriot Act? And we’re talking about dealings with Congress here. This is not something the President can claim to not be responsible for. Agencies do not decide on their own that they won’t cooperate with Congress. > [@](#): > > Two House members, GOP Rep. Morgan Griffith of Virginia and Democratic Rep. Alan Grayson of Florida, have provided the Guardian with numerous letters and emails documenting their persistent, and unsuccessful, efforts to learn about NSA programs and relevant FISA court rulings… > > …Congressman Grayson has had very similar experiences, except that he sometimes did receive responses to his requests: negative ones. > > On June 19, Grayson wrote to the House Intelligence Committee requesting several documents relating to media accounts about the NSA. Included among them were FISA court opinions directing the collection of telephone records for Americans, as well as documents relating to the PRISM program. > > But just over four weeks later, the Chairman of the Committee, GOP Rep. Mike Rogers, wrote to Grayson informing him that his requests had been denied by a Committee “voice vote”. > > In a follow-up email exchange, a staff member for Grayson wrote to the Chairman, advising him that Congressman Grayson had “discussed the committee’s decision with Ranking Member [Dutch] Ruppersberger on the floor last night, and he told the Congressman that he was unaware of any committee action on this matter.” Grayson wanted to know how a voice vote denying him access to these documents could have taken place without the knowledge of the ranking member on the Committee, and asked: “can you please share with us the recorded vote, Member-by-Member?” The reply from this Committee was as follows: > Thanks for your inquiry. The full Committee attends Business Meetings. At our July 18, 2013 Business Meeting, there were seven Democrat Members and nine Republican Members in attendance. The transcript is classified." > > To date, neither Griffith nor Grayson has received any of the documents they requested. Correspondence between Grayson and the Committee - with names of staff members and email addresses redacted - can be read here. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/327 "2013-08-18T04:53:11Z")
So an internal audit found mistakes. Internal means it was entirely within the Agency. Just because there are protections doesn’t mean they’re invulnerable. Hence what the audit found. Prove Obama was withholding information rather than not being told. You give Reagan a pass for being lazy and not caring to know what’s happening on his watch yet Obama is supposed to be psychic and know what every single employee of the federal government is doing. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/328 "2013-08-18T05:16:25Z")
Maybe they don’t have the required clearances? At least Obama still goes through the Court, Bush just [ignored it completely](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_%282001%E2%80%9307%29). ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/329 "2013-08-18T05:18:10Z")
They have to vote on the program, so they need the clearances. And I’m perfectly willing to accept that Obama didn’t know. He doesn’t seem to know nuthin’ about nuthin’ lately. He’s a figurehead. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/330 "2013-08-18T05:23:05Z")
If that’s the kind of thing you like, Warren is your candidate. Someone who won’t make any effort to run the government, and won’t even be particularly interested in finding anything out. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/331 "2013-08-18T15:44:34Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > This thread is amusing the same way Public Access television is. Yep. Consistently entertaining. It’s like watching a Martian try to analyze our mating rituals through a Google translator. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/332 "2013-08-19T11:30:00Z")
More evidence that competence matters: > **[Unpublished CRS Memo: Obama Administration Has Missed Half Of Obamacare's...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/08/18/unpublished-crs-memo-obama-administration-has-missed-half-of-obamacares-legally-imposed-implementation-deadlines/?partner=yahootix)** > > In recent months, President Obama and his subordinates have waived or delayed a number of Obamacare’s notable features, such as the law’s employer mandate, and its procedures for protecting taxpayers from fraud and identity theft. Last week, in that... Half the deadlines missed. This was predicted of course, and laughed off by most supporters of the law. So I’m eager to hear the next ad hoc excuse for why this doesn’t reflect badly on the President’s competence. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/333 "2013-08-19T16:41:49Z")
Reince Priebus must go. [RNC Spokesman Mistakenly Confirmed ‘Racist’ Priebus Quote](http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/rnc-spokesman-mistakenly-confirmed-racist-priebus-quote?ref=fpb) > [@](#): > > It turns out a spokesman for the Republican National Committee mistakenly confirmed on Friday that chairman Reince Priebus had described the term “self-deportation” as “racist.” Remember, it does not matter whether Priebus used the term or not. What matters is that Reince Priebus is not a true leader, because he does not control every utterance and action of every person in the Republican Party hierarchy. This is intolerable. He is responsible for every thing that ever happens. If any gaffes are made, they reflect on Priebus’ competence and he must do the right thing and step down immediately. And so must the next RNC chair and the one after that and the one after that and the one after that and… ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/334 "2013-08-19T17:53:42Z")
The head of the RNC head has little authority, first off, and secondly, I never said that Obama should step down. Only that he sucks at his job and we should learn from that when evaluating future candidates. Finally, everyone makes mistakes. There isn’t a great historical figure alive who hasn’t made a great blunder. What separates the great from the pretenders is that the great ones took responsibility for their blunders rather than pointing the finger. And because they were awesome, they could survive such blunders. Obama’s supporters prove what a crappy leader he is by always needing to defend him on every single criticism that actually cuts(as opposed to the mild criticisms of him from the left), because he’s not strong enough to survive a few cuts. And he himself proves what a bad leader he is by always blaming someone else when something goes wrong. During the campaign, he blamed his staff 17 times for mistakes his campaign made. And the weekly stories of administration foul-ups? Always someone else’s fault. Either Obama is the hardest luck President in history, beset by incompetence wherever he turns, or the problem is at the top. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/335 "2013-08-19T18:05:49Z")
At this point, Obama’s job approval is 99% the man as symbol, not the man as head of the executive branch: [http://pollingreport.com/obama\_ad.htm](http://pollingreport.com/obama_ad.htm) If Liz Warren had these approval ratings for actual job performance, issue by issue, she’d be around 35%. And we know she would be this bad, because she has exactly the same experience as Obama, as in none other than being an academic. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/336 "2013-08-19T22:34:00Z")
I think it far more likely that if Warren had the same approval ratings as Obama, then she would have the same approval ratings as Obama. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/337 "2013-08-19T23:38:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > she has exactly the same experience as Obama Well, except for that job Obama’s held for the last four and a half years, after one and a half Senate terms and a few in the Illinois state Senate. On the other hand, there’s all the Washington insider work Warren did to create the CPFB, after a considerable period of activism. If your guys hadn’t pulled their automatic filibuster shit, she’d be directing the CPFB instead of sitting alongside them in the Senate now - as a member of the majority. Silly little facts, never let them get in the way of a good partisan rant, eh what? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/338 "2013-08-20T06:17:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think it far more likely that if Warren had the same approval ratings as Obama, then she would have the same approval ratings as Obama. If she had such ratings for her handling of various issues, especially that 35% rating for handling the economy(which BTW isn’t actually something the President is accountable for, which shows how screwed up political discourse is), then she’d probably have a… 35% approval rating. Obama gets bonus points for being Obama. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/339 "2013-08-20T06:19:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Well, except for that job Obama’s held for the last four and a half years, after one and a half Senate terms and a few in the Illinois state Senate. On the other hand, there’s all the Washington insider work Warren did to create the CPFB, after a considerable period of activism. > > If your guys hadn’t pulled their automatic filibuster shit, she’d be directing the CPFB instead of sitting alongside them in the Senate now - as a member of the majority. > > Silly little facts, never let them get in the way of a good partisan rant, eh what? 😛 Has he improved in the last four and a half years, or responded to his inadequacy by growing even more insular? According to what I’ve read, he’s become more and more isolated, listening only to a few close Chicago advisors. And he’s obviously reading some blogs, because he adopts their talking points on occasion in a rather amusing and pathetic way. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/340 "2013-08-20T06:50:24Z")
The New Yorker today published a fairly long article detailing what real leadership looks like: a look at Michael Bloomberg’s three terms as mayor. I don’t like a lot of his initiatives, but his ability to govern effectively is indisputable. Furthermore, he makes precisely the same arguments I’ve been making about why Obama is failing. > **[After Bloomberg](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/26/after-bloomberg)** > > What kind of city is the Mayor leaving to his successor? Most notably, his screwups are HIS, not his staff’s, not someone in the bureaucracy. He knows what’s going on and he takes responsibility for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838.md?page=18)