# Elizabeth Warren and the Presidency **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 24, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838 "2013-03-24T19:07:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/101 "2013-03-27T15:18:00Z")
I wasn’t asking you to help your accusers make their case. I was asking if there’s any standard you would accept for proving you (0r anyone who denies being a racist) a racist. If no (or if no answer), then why should someone try to prove what you state in advance is impossible to prove? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/102 "2013-03-27T15:21:05Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Kind of racist though. Name-calling directed at a group when it is addressed to a poster who is a member of the group comes pretty close to name-calling, period. Avoid this behavior. = = = = EVERYONE, drop the whole schtick about who is or is not racist, sexist, ageist, end-of-the-egg-to-openist, etc. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/103 "2013-03-27T15:24:22Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I stated a list of facts. Connected only by insinuation, and none of which point to Warren having lied, as you continue to claim (although as your “opinion” :rolleyes: ). > [@](#): > > None are in dispute. Not by _you_. By the reality-based community, there certainly are - including your claim that Harvard was in on the conspiracy. > [@](#): > > You really have a fixation on Howie Carr. Proper form is to cite your sources. I merely did that for you. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/104 "2013-03-27T15:33:44Z")
Aw, I was all set to called **Debaser** a Bigendian… ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/105 "2013-03-27T16:15:01Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Your interpretation assumes that she isn’t acting in her own best interests. In my experience people tend to do things that benefit themselves. It might be a happy accident that she happened to benefit from her minority status, but even if it is she should have known better than to take advantage of the system. The odds that it was simply innocent are so astonishingly small in my opinion that it’s not even worth considering. And your interpretation assumes she’s a lying scum. I like my interpretation better, since it fits better with the facts And since she’s part Cherokee, she didn’t take advantage of anything. Again, you’re assuming your premise is correct with little evidence and drawing conclusions based on that. I believe my interpretation that I posted above is much more accurate, since that matches what she says. And what exactly are the odds of someone having part Cherokee heritage where she comes from? Do you know? Do you care? Or are you just making that up? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/106 "2013-03-27T16:16:32Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/107 "2013-03-27T19:14:09Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > she should have known better than to take advantage of the system. Quite an unusual view of ethicality there, regardless of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/108 "2013-03-27T19:22:41Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > And your interpretation assumes she’s a lying scum. I like my interpretation better, since it fits better with the facts > > And since she’s part Cherokee, she didn’t take advantage of anything. Again, you’re assuming your premise is correct with little evidence and drawing conclusions based on that. I believe my interpretation that I posted above is much more accurate, since that matches what she says. > > And what exactly are the odds of someone having part Cherokee heritage where she comes from? Do you know? Do you care? Or are you just making that up? I think the whole Native American thing is a mountain out of a mole hill, but she really doesn’t have any good evidence of being part Cherokee. Further, it doesn’t matter what the odds are, since this isn’t about playing the odds. Even further, I don’t think anyone knows what the odds are, so it’s rather disingenuous to assume that they are necessarily high. Are they higher than in Maine? Probably, but so what? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/109 "2013-03-27T19:26:14Z")
But there’s even \*less \*evidence (to wit, none) that she’s lying about it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/110 "2013-03-27T19:39:40Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But there’s even \*less \*evidence (to wit, none) that she’s lying about it. Agreed. I don’t think she lied. At worst, she was sloppy, at best it was an honest mistake. Just to be clear, I think **Debaser** is off base here, but no need to go so far as to make stuff up in order to defend her. I’m sure there are lots of whites from OK who are part Cherokee, but I don’t think anyone knows just how common it is or whether or not she really is. AFAIK, there is no documented evidence that she is, so let’s just leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/111 "2013-03-27T19:47:50Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > So I’m a sexist too? > > Off the top of my head: > > Shrill female republican: > Anne Coulter > > Non shrill female republican: > Sarah Palin > > Shrill female democrat: > Elizabeth Warren > > Non Shrill female democrat: > Margery Eagan > > Sorry to disappoint your Republican stereotypes, but it’s possible to be shrill on both sides of the aisle. So stipulated, ideology is not a determining factor. However, I will also stipulate that the propensity for using the term in referencing females to support the sexist aspect. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/112 "2013-03-27T20:01:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > no need to go so far as to make stuff up in order to defend her. \*What \*stuff? > [@](#): > > I’m sure there are lots of whites from OK who are part Cherokee, but I don’t think anyone knows just how common it is or whether or not she really is. AFAIK, there is no documented evidence that she is, so let’s just leave it at that. You’d never even have heard about it if it weren’t the only smear the Republicans could come up with (well, besides the “Socialism!” stuff and the other routine dogwhistles that don’t work among a better-educated electorate). Enough already with your false equivalences, please. _That’s_ “making stuff up”. They are quite tiresome, not to mention obscurative. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/113 "2013-03-27T20:10:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Agreed. I don’t think she lied. At worst, she was sloppy, at best it was an honest mistake. > > Just to be clear, I think **Debaser** is off base here, but no need to go so far as to make stuff up in order to defend her. I’m sure there are lots of whites from OK who are part Cherokee, but I don’t think anyone knows just how common it is or whether or not she really is. AFAIK, there is no documented evidence that she is, so let’s just leave it at that. Well, there wouldn’t be, would there? What sort of “documented evidence” are you suggesting? At the time and place, was she asked for any? (You think _that’s_ a mess, you should see the conniption fits being thrown by people who insist they are legally entitled to be part of the “Sioux” tribe, now that it has a casino. Outside of that, not a lot of folks clamoring for a chance to live on the “Rez”.) ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/114 "2013-03-27T20:40:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > (You think _that’s_ a mess, you should see the conniption fits being thrown by people who insist they are legally entitled to be part of the “Sioux” tribe, now that it has a casino. Outside of that, not a lot of folks clamoring for a chance to live on the “Rez”.) This is exactly the point. There are benefits to being Native American that are given by the government or universities to make up for the hardships that are part of being Native American. She wants the former but doesn’t suffer the latter. Casino rights and preferred hiring at colleges are benefits that should go to people who need them: the people who live on [The Navajo Reservation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_Nation), for instance, who have average unemployment of over 40%. Not white chicks from OK. Her using her “minority status” to get a job is as despicable as someone not from the reservation claiming to be Sioux just so they can get their percentage of casino revenue. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/115 "2013-03-27T20:46:18Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > And your interpretation assumes she’s a lying scum. _shrug_ She might actually believe the “family lore”. Either way, she’s claiming something without any evidence. I’ve said it before: I want to know where this directory is. I should put myself on it. Everyone should. I mean, if there’s no proof required, why not? > [@](#): > > And since she’s part Cherokee, she didn’t take advantage of anything. Do you believe that preferential hiring for Native Americans should be aimed at people like her who don’t have any connection to Native Americans and grew up white and in a white neighborhood? Or do you think it should be aimed at those who actually need it? > [@](#): > > And what exactly are the odds of someone having part Cherokee heritage where she comes from? Do you know? Do you care? Or are you just making that up? Don’t care. Let’s say it’s 40% for the sake of argument. Does it benefit Harvard or any other institution from a diversity perspective to preferentially hire from that pool of white people from OK that are 1/32 or 1/64 Native American? Of course not. The only ones who benefit are the person hired and the University getting to pad their “minority” stats. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/116 "2013-03-27T20:46:50Z")
You’re setting the standards again so as to fit your prejudices, no big surprise. As with your refusing to establish a standard for “proof” of being a racist, you’re setting the standard for proving one’s legitimately claiming to have Indian blood so vaguely that you can discount it in any event, thus “proving” that Warren is not qualified. You want to claim that you’re no racist, and that Warren is “despicable” for applying for minority status, but you refuse to tell us what constitutes “proof” for you. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/117 "2013-03-27T21:09:09Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > She might actually believe the “family lore”. Either way, she’s claiming something without any evidence. A fact which she herself has made quite clear, repeatedly - it’s based on family lore, and her high cheekbones. You, on the other hand, are calling her a liar with no evidence _whatsoever_. > [@](#): > > I’ve said it before: I want to know where this directory is. I should put myself on it. Everyone should. I mean, if there’s no proof required, why not? That’s no secret, either. To be officially recognized as a member of the “Five Civilized Tribes”, you have to be able to trace descent to someone on the [Dawes Rolls](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawes_Rolls) (Disclosure: My wife and kids can. My Choctaw mother-in-law looks like she was a model for Frederic Remington). If you can’t do that, then family lore and high cheekbones are all the evidence you can ever have. The other tribes have their own rules; the law is that the tribes themselves are the authority for who their members are. > [@](#): > > Do you believe that preferential hiring for Native Americans should be aimed at people like her who don’t have any connection to Native Americans and grew up white and in a white neighborhood? Or do you think it should be aimed at those who actually need it? Your quarrel is with the imprecision of affirmative action programs themselves, not with those who follow them. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/118 "2013-03-27T21:12:56Z")
This isn’t the place to debate whether or not a poster is a racist. Stick to discussing the issue, please. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/119 "2013-03-27T21:18:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think the whole Native American thing is a mountain out of a mole hill, but she really doesn’t have any good evidence of being part Cherokee. > > Further, it doesn’t matter what the odds are, since this isn’t about playing the odds. Even further, I don’t think anyone knows what the odds are, so it’s rather disingenuous to assume that they are necessarily high. Are they higher than in Maine? Probably, but so what? I think the problem is that you’re trying to look at this from a the standpoint of someone who is clearly half black and half white. Warren doesn’t look Cherokee, says the opponents, and therefore isn’t. First, that’s a stupid argument by those people. Second, she didn’t say she was half Cherokee or that her mother was half and is easily traceable. The Cherokee blood in her is probably so long ago and so distant that any evidence to that fact would be difficult to find. IMHO, her opponents know that and are trying to use that against her. They’re basically saying she has to prove it first before saying it, when she wasn’t using it as a crutch or affirmative action, so she can claim to be part Martian and it shouldn’t make a difference to anyone. She says she is, she has no reason to lie, therefore we should believe her. The end. > [@Debaser](#): > > She might actually believe the “family lore”. Either way, she’s claiming something without any evidence. You don’t need evidence for family lore. She shared a bit of history about herself that was interesting. What’s next? Asking her for proof that her Nana called her Lizzy when she was 4? I have a lot of things that’s happened in my family that I know for a fact are true but can’t prove if you demand evidence for it. Why should I have to? Its just personal family lore > [@Debaser](#): > > Do you believe that preferential hiring for Native Americans should be aimed at people like her who don’t have any connection to Native Americans and grew up white and in a white neighborhood? Or do you think it should be aimed at those who actually need it? I believe that she didn’t get any preferential treatment, so it doesn’t matter > [@Debaser](#): > > The only ones who benefit are the person hired and the University getting to pad their “minority” stats. They hired someone qualified. More than qualified, in fact, owing to her positions that she arose to ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/120 "2013-03-27T21:23:58Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Warren doesn’t look Cherokee, says the opponents, and therefore isn’t. First, that’s a stupid argument by those people. Sure is. My wife and some of her siblings look as German as her father, and her other siblings look like extras in an old Western. None looks like a mix. But they’re all a quarter Choctaw. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838.md?page=7)