# Elizabeth Warren and the Presidency **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 24, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838 "2013-03-24T19:07:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/121 "2013-03-27T22:07:59Z")
If Elizabeth Warren didn’t attend at least every third Harvard faculty meeting wearing a war bonnet and waving a tomahawk, I don’t believe she has any Indian blood. Represent! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/122 "2013-03-27T22:51:26Z")
Family lore _is_ evidence. OK, so it’s not particularly strong evidence, but it is still evidence. Do you have any evidence that’s at least as strong to the contrary? And yeah, maybe affirmative action programs should be restricted to those who need them, and maybe they should ask for more documentation. You want to criticize the people who set up such programs, go right ahead. But the rules are what they are, and it’d be silly of someone to _not_ take advantage of those rules if they can. ---
**Author:** ![conservativerod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f9b8f/32.png) [@conservativerod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/conservativerod)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/123 "2013-03-27T22:56:09Z")
Lol! She is a Dem scammer. Wake up ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/124 "2013-03-27T23:02:43Z")
> [@conservativerod](#): > > Lol! She is a Dem scammer. Wake up My god! With your come-from-nowhere appearance and in-your-face, keepin’-it-real, just-joined-five-minutes-ago demeanor, you’ve totally convinced me! ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/125 "2013-03-27T23:18:35Z")
Bear in mind that she may well have benefited from an affirmative action preference, if there was any, simply as a woman, since Harvard was trying to increase their female professor percentages as well. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/126 "2013-03-27T23:23:13Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > Bear in mind that she may well have benefited from an affirmative action preference, if there was any, simply as a woman, since Harvard was trying to increase their female professor percentages as well. How do you know she’s a woman? Have you seen her vagina? How do we know for sure??? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/127 "2013-03-27T23:27:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > …But they’re all a quarter Choctaw. And nothing to be ashamed of! Not as handsome or intelligent as the Cherokee, sure, but who is? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/128 "2013-03-27T23:45:59Z")
:: looks around, slowly raises hand :: ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/129 "2013-03-28T00:20:28Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > :: looks around, slowly raises hand :: Well, a Jeep Cherokee, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/130 "2013-03-28T14:22:17Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > You’re setting the standards again so as to fit your prejudices, no big surprise. As with your refusing to establish a standard for “proof” of being a racist, you’re setting the standard for proving one’s legitimately claiming to have Indian blood so vaguely that you can discount it in any event, thus “proving” that Warren is not qualified. You want to claim that you’re no racist, and that Warren is “despicable” for applying for minority status, but you refuse to tell us what constitutes “proof” for you. I’m going to ignore the accusations of racism, per the mod notes. None of you are getting warnings for these, but I’m sure I would if I responded to them. But this standard of “proof” that you seek is ridiculous. She has no proof for her claims of being Cherokee. None. That’s the simple truth of it. What would constitute evidence of her claims? There could be a hundred things. Documentation, as some tribes require. Being from a reservation. Belonging to a particular tribe. Having any sort of involvement in Native American issues or groups. There are plenty of people who are real Native Americans and that would have no trouble providing these sorts of basic things as evidence of who they are. She can’t. Because she isn’t one of them. To state that providing some evidence of her claims is impossible is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/131 "2013-03-28T15:16:48Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I think the problem is that you’re trying to look at this from a the standpoint of someone who is clearly half black and half white. Warren doesn’t look Cherokee, says the opponents, and therefore isn’t. First, that’s a stupid argument by those people. Second, she didn’t say she was half Cherokee or that her mother was half and is easily traceable. The Cherokee blood in her is probably so long ago and so distant that any evidence to that fact would be difficult to find. IMHO, her opponents know that and are trying to use that against her. They’re basically saying she has to prove it first before saying it, when she wasn’t using it as a crutch or affirmative action, so she can claim to be part Martian and it shouldn’t make a difference to anyone. She says she is, she has no reason to lie, therefore we should believe her. The end. I know all the details of her history on this subject. Now, I don’t think it was a big deal for her in an AA sense, so I’m not worried about it. But, if she is going to actually claim to be part Indian, she should have some actual proof besides “family lore”. If she had simply said “I think I have some Indian ancestry, but we don’t know for sure because records weren’t all that good back then”, that’s fine. But to claim “I am Native American” based on the evidence she has is pretty silly, IMO. Best that she just chalk it up to an honest mistake and move on. If you think she should defend her alleged ancestry, then I guess that’s your prerogative. I doubt that even she agrees with you, though. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/132 "2013-03-28T16:09:33Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > She can’t. Because she isn’t one of them. She is not and can never be registered with the tribe, for reasons that I hope you now understand, but that wasn’t ever her claim, was it? Do you also not yet understand that not everyone with Cherokee blood at the time of the Dawes Rolls’ creation is on them? That you can have Indian ancestry and have only family lore and high cheekbones to prove it? > [@](#): > > To state that providing some evidence of her claims is impossible is just silly. Again, you are claiming flatly that she’s lying about, well, something, but with no evidence whatever to support that claim. Speaking of “just silly”, among other possible adjectives, that is. You might as well quote Scott Brown directly: “Clearly, just look at her.” :rolleyes: At least that would be evidence of a sort. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/133 "2013-03-28T16:22:48Z")
How did a discussion of Elizabeth Warren presidential chances got to importance and reliability of Native American ancestry? To me, much more interesting would be the relationship Elizabeth Warren has with Democratic Party main types such as Hilary Clinton There is a very in-depth article written by Jeffrey Tobin in The New Yorker that pretty much outlines her delineation not only with her recent election opponent Scott Brown but also with the mainstream Democratic Party: [http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/09/17/120917fa\_fact\_toobin](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/09/17/120917fa_fact_toobin) Relevant quote: > [@](#): > > Warren represents a genuine ideological challenge to Brown, and to her party as well. “Warren is neither a Clintonesque triangulator nor an Obamaesque conciliator. She is a throwback to a more combative progressive tradition, and her candidacy is a test of whether that approach can still appeal to voters. \*\* I realize now subscription is needed… sorry ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/134 "2013-03-28T16:33:06Z")
Because there are those, including Scott Brown and our interlocutor, who did and do not wish, for painfully obvious reasons, to get into any sort of discussion about her policy positions or attitudes compared to those of the Teabagger opposition. The “Fauxcahontas” idiocy is easy and fun, by comparison, so it’s a tempting substitute for actual content. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/135 "2013-03-28T16:51:48Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I’m going to ignore the accusations of racism, per the mod notes. None of you are getting warnings for these, but I’m sure I would if I responded to them… You poor dear. How dreadful it must be for you, to move you to bewail prejudicial treatment before it even happens. > [@](#): > > …But this standard of “proof” that you seek is ridiculous. > > She has no proof for her claims of being Cherokee. None. That’s the simple truth of it. What would constitute evidence of her claims? There could be a hundred things. Documentation, as some tribes require. Being from a reservation. Belonging to a particular tribe. Having any sort of involvement in Native American issues or groups… Got a feeling you don’t know much at all about Native American history in America. I have a smattering of Cherokee blood, and I can more or less prove it, my father’s family name appears on the rolls of the Trail of Tears. To what degree? Haven’t the foggiest. Why? Because the Cherokee had intermingled and intermarried with the white man from the very earliest days. They adopted and adapted white technology with enthusiasm. Roads, villages, plantations, blacksmiths, legislatures. And slavery, to some degree. Let us remember the shame as well as the pride. At the time of their betrayal by Andy Jackson (May the Goddess pee in his Cheerios every morning until the end of time, amen…), the leadership of the Cherokee tribe was almost entirely made up of mixed blood. Sam Houston, for instance, who was known to the tribe as “Big Drunk”, was maybe a quarter, maybe three-eighths. (My own tribal name is “Dances with Vulvas”. Just kidding, my tribal name is Richard Lee…) Compare to the Comanche, who at one time was the dominant tribe of the Plains. They refused contact with the white man to the extent it was possible, and suffered few if any of the ravages of such contact, the “germs” of _Guns, Germs and Steel_. Know anybody who claims Comanche blood? Not bloody likely. They did not bend, but they broke. The point? Cherokee blood is pervasive, vast numbers of people can rightly claim some descent from Cherokee, most especially such people who’s family has been in Arkansas, Texas or Oklahoma for several generations. There is nothing at all unusual about having Cherokee blood in my native Texas, nor in Ms Warrens native Oklahoma. It lies thick upon the ground. In such rural settings, documentation is not a priority. You would no more be concerned with documenting Cherokee descent than you would Irish or Scots or German. And you wouldn’t be able to, to save your soul, in any case. > [@](#): > > …There are plenty of people who are real Native Americans and that would have no trouble providing these sorts of basic things as evidence of who they are… Wanna bet? Cite? Or is your opinion firmly grounded in your own presumptions? Many people descend from the Plains Indian tribes…the “Sioux”, the Cheyenne, and so forth…made “treaties” with the white man, were documented, stamped, reservated. Much less so the Eastern tribes, the Cherokee, the Creek, Seminoles. The “Sioux” might have stayed away from the _washiste_ if they could have, but they were living on the white mans land, and didn’t have the deed. And a lot of the white man’s gold was buried there. > [@](#): > > …She can’t. Because she isn’t one of them… One of whom? Full blood Cherokee? Do you have any idea, however vague, how few such people there are? Go find out. > [@](#): > > …To state that providing some evidence of her claims is impossible is just silly. Given the circumstances, proving the opposite is equally difficult. Cheekbones doesn’t enter into it, as high cheekbones are more indicative of Plains Indians, who exemplify what most of us think of as “looking Indian”. The typical Cherokee male was somewhat short, bandy-legged and barrel chested. More like an “Eskimo” than a Cheyenne. Seems to me if proving Cherokee descent is as easy as you claim, then disproving it should be equally easy, yes? I see no such effort on your part, and that is wise. I do see you asserting it as fact, and that is not wise. Because you haven’t the slightest idea of what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/136 "2013-03-28T16:58:11Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > So I’m a sexist too? > > Off the top of my head: > > Shrill female republican: > Anne Coulter > > Non shrill female republican: > Sarah Palin No, not Palin. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/137 "2013-03-28T17:11:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And nothing to be ashamed of! Not as handsome or intelligent as the Cherokee, sure, but who is? The Choctaws invented baseball. Case closed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/138 "2013-03-28T17:13:50Z")
Throwing a possum at somebody who hits it midair with a stick isn’t “baseball”. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/139 "2013-03-28T17:40:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > At the time of their betrayal by Andy Jackson (May the Goddess pee in his Cheerios every morning until the end of time, amen…), the leadership of the Cherokee tribe was almost entirely made up of mixed blood. Hell, Chief John Ross, who took the Cherokees on the Trail of Tears, was probably whiter than Jackson himself. My MIL and her family won’t use $20 bills because of Jackson’s picture. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838/140 "2013-03-28T18:50:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The “Sioux” might have stayed away from the _washiste_ if they could have, but they were living on the white mans land, and didn’t have the deed. _Wasichu_, pronounced wah-SHEE-chu. You are probably confusing that with _washte_, which means “good”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-and-the-presidency/653838.md?page=8)