# Elizabeth Warren Stands by DNA Test. But Around Her, Worries Abound. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 6, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682 "2018-12-06T16:33:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/181 "2018-12-14T22:35:16Z")
Tell that to Nkechi Amare Diallo. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/182 "2018-12-14T22:39:18Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Tell that to Nkechi Amare Diallo. Well, she did other things that were wrong, but self identifying as Black wasn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/183 "2018-12-14T23:01:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s true- mostly > > There are only three Basis for Race, and two arent very good: > > 1. Self identification. You identify with whatever race or ethnicity you choose. If you make that choice, it is racist to call you on it. You can do this on the basic of a DNA test if that makes you happy. But it is YOUR choice. > > 2. Legal: Recognized Native American tribes in the USA can decide who is and who isnt a \*legal \*member of that tribe. However, you dont have to have any NA ancestry, and even if you have full NA ancestry, a tribe can still exclude you. So really, this isnt a "racial’ thing at all, it is more like belonging to a exclusive organization or club. > > 3. The Coroner and DNA results: When the coroner has a unknown victim, he can make a rough approximation of “race”, but it is by no means conclusive and it is more of a educated guess based upon DNA and outward appearance. \* Somewhat \*scientific, but not conclusive. > > So, actually the only real way is #1. > > And Warren has _self identified_ as native American, which she has every right to, where it is on the basis of a DNA test or her mothers stories, it makes no difference. She could just as well, and just as legitimately, claim to be black or hispanic or whatever she chooses. _Self identification_ is her right, and \*no one has the right to challenge her on it. \* She has \*not \*claimed legal membership in a recognized Native American tribe, so the Cherokee nation is being racist when they attack her. She has _self identified_. So, saying she is NOT a Native American is being racist. Lets look at what the definition is on many of the sheets of paper she checked off. [![](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2NyjBJDucyQ/UFFxlidwKEI/AAAAAAAACq0/LPw6-5IicjU/s1600/sidf.jpg) ](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2NyjBJDucyQ/UFFxlidwKEI/AAAAAAAACq0/LPw6-5IicjU/s1600/sidf.jpg) > [@](#): > > American Indian or Alaskan Native. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of North America, **and** who maintains cultural identification through **tribal affiliations** or **community recognition**. (Note that is Native American Community Recognition, not self identification, it is a legal standard) While I don’t doubt her qualifications were the primary drivers of her employment, she listed herself as a “Minority” based on these claims from 1986 to 1995. But she was still claiming to be a minority. > [@](#): > > Although the conventional wisdom among students and faculty is that the Law School faculty includes no minority women, Chmura said Professor of Law Elizabeth Warren is Native American. > **[Survey: Diversity Lacking At HLS | News | The Harvard Crimson](https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1996/10/22/survey-diversity-lacking-at-hls-pa/)** > > A majority of Harvard Law School students are unhappy with the level of representation of women and minorities on the Then after being trolled by Trump she resorted to the (yes racist) DNA claims and actually built a website about it. The legal indigeneity requirements surrounding **tribal affiliations** or **community recognition** are not similar to the typical self identification of other groups. This is directly related to the _ongoing_ cultural cleansing efforts against Native Americans today. Indigenous people have historicaly been understood to be members of a common ‘race’, but this is a byproduct of colonialism and intentional obscuring of their diversity. Trying to paint all minorities as having the same issues or barriers or concerns is dehumanizing. Minorities are full human beings like everyone else, and different groups have different challenges related to removing the power imbalance tied to institutional racism. Note the above claim is still suggesting it is exclusively a white power to decide what challenges there are for black, native an other groups and suggesting they all face the same barriers. It is still a "racial’ thing despite those differences, you are still using Samuel Morton’s racial categories to maintain the power imbalance. Or in the case of this DNA test, using Samuel Morton’s racial categories to prove something that your post just pointed out isn’t valid, but still claiming that it is due to some perceived biological basis in race. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/184 "2018-12-14T23:10:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s true- mostly > > There are only three Basis for Race, and two arent very good: > > 1. Self identification. You identify with whatever race or ethnicity you choose. If you make that choice, it is racist to call you on it. You can do this on the basic of a DNA test if that makes you happy. But it is YOUR choice. > > 2. Legal: Recognized Native American tribes in the USA can decide who is and who isnt a \*legal \*member of that tribe. However, you dont have to have any NA ancestry, and even if you have full NA ancestry, a tribe can still exclude you. So really, this isnt a "racial’ thing at all, it is more like belonging to a exclusive organization or club. > > 3. The Coroner and DNA results: When the coroner has a unknown victim, he can make a rough approximation of “race”, but it is by no means conclusive and it is more of a educated guess based upon DNA and outward appearance. \* Somewhat \*scientific, but not conclusive. > > So, actually the only real way is #1. > > And Warren has _self identified_ as native American, which she has every right to, where it is on the basis of a DNA test or her mothers stories, it makes no difference. She could just as well, and just as legitimately, claim to be black or hispanic or whatever she chooses. _Self identification_ is her right, and \*no one has the right to challenge her on it. \* She has \*not \*claimed legal membership in a recognized Native American tribe, so the Cherokee nation is being racist when they attack her. She has _self identified_. So, saying she is NOT a Native American is being racist. I thought she’s been self identifying as “white” for a while now. And at one point she claimed she was Cherokee, but that was a for a cook book so…:shrug: How far does self identification go? I would think that when companies are trying to get more diversity among their staff, they don’t want, say, a white guy, of white European decent, and whose relatives are all of white European decent, who says he’s black. The black Americans’ experience is different from that of the white Americans’ experience. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/185 "2018-12-14T23:45:04Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Lets look at what the definition is on many of the sheets of paper she checked off. > [http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2NyjBJDucyQ/UFFxlidwKEI/AAAAAAAACq0/LPw6-5IicjU/s1600/sidf.jpg](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2NyjBJDucyQ/UFFxlidwKEI/AAAAAAAACq0/LPw6-5IicjU/s1600/sidf.jpg) > > (Note that is Native American Community Recognition, not self identification, it is a legal standard) > > While I don’t doubt her qualifications were the primary drivers of her employment, she listed herself as a “Minority” based on these claims from 1986 to 1995. > > But she was still claiming to be a minority. > > Then after being trolled by Trump she resorted to the (yes racist) DNA claims and actually built a website about it. > > The legal indigeneity requirements surrounding **tribal affiliations** or **community recognition** are not similar to the typical self identification of other groups. This is directly related to the _ongoing_ cultural cleansing efforts against Native Americans today. > > … > It is still a "racial’ thing despite those differences, you are still using Samuel Morton’s racial categories to maintain the power imbalance. Or in the case of this DNA test, using Samuel Morton’s racial categories to prove something that your post just pointed out isn’t valid, but still claiming that it is due to some perceived biological basis in race. Note the title of that form : “Voluntary _Self identification_” and “we request that you complete this _self identification_ form…” and at that time, she had been told by her family that she did have “origins in any of the original peoples…”. No where did she claim to be a Legal member of a recognized tribe. And if you want to base your\* self identification\* on your DNA test, that’s perfectly OK. Saying otherwise is racist. You can base your _self identification_ on whatever you want to. And she has every right to \* self identify \*as a minority, saying she has no right to \*self identify \*is racist. There is nothing racist about using a DNA test to base your \*self identification \*on. Saying otherwise is racist. Whatever the \*legal indigeneity requirements \* are, they are legal, and not based on race. You keep ignoring this- \*you dont have to have any NA ancestry, and even if you have full NA ancestry, a tribe can still exclude you. \* I am? I am saying you can _self identify_ as anything you want. I used the terms on that form _you_ like to share. If that form is invalid and racist, why do _you_ keep showing it as a example? Again, there is only one valid determination of race- _self identification_. You appear to be saying Warrens _self identification_ is invalid- and if so that is being racist. She has every right to choose her own\* self identification.\* Saying otherwise is racist. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/186 "2018-12-14T23:46:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Note the title of that form : “Voluntary _Self identification_” and “we request that you complete this _self identification_ form…” and at that time, she had been told by her family that she did have “origins in any of the original peoples…”. > > No where did she claim to be a Legal member of a recognized tribe. > > And if you want to base your\* self identification\* on your DNA test, that’s perfectly OK. Saying otherwise is racist. You can base your _self identification_ on whatever you want to. > > And she has every right to \* self identify \*as a minority, saying she has no right to \*self identify \*is racist. > > There is nothing racist about using a DNA test to base your \*self identification \*on. Saying otherwise is racist. > > Whatever the \*legal indigeneity requirements \* are, they are legal, and not based on race. You keep ignoring this- \*you dont have to have any NA ancestry, and even if you have full NA ancestry, a tribe can still exclude you. \* > > I am? I am saying you can _self identify_ as anything you want. I used the terms on that form _you_ like to share. If that form is invalid and racist, why do _you_ keep showing it as a example? > > Again, there is only one valid determination of race- _self identification_. You appear to be saying Warrens _self identification_ is invalid- and if so that is being racist. She has every right to choose her own\* self identification.\* Saying otherwise is racist. Try re-reading the two part test for checking that box. You can deny that it exists all you want, but the world is still round. And yes, the DNA test is still racist too, and scientifically shaky ground as mentioned before: > **[Different differences: The use of ‘genetic ancestry’ versus race in...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3124377/)** > > This article presents findings from our ethnographic research on biomedical scientists’ studies of human genetic variation and common complex disease. We examine the socio-material work involved in genome-wide association studies (GWAS) and discuss... > [@](#): > > Although genetic ancestry is not race, these ancestry categories are often read as race and ethnicity, especially when the ancestry labels match national, tribal, and other designations that have socio-cultural meaning and carry political implications. If for that nation, DNA is not a hard requirement, how would testing Mexican and Central American DNA and concluding she was telling the truth is valid? Note that all genealogical studies failed to find any Native ancestry and she claimed it was closely related, thus her moms lie about sneaking away to get married. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/187 "2018-12-14T23:54:54Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Try re-reading the two part test for checking that box. > > You can deny that it exists all you want, but the world is still round. > > And yes, the DNA test is still racist too, and scientifically shaky ground as mentioned before: > > [Different differences: The use of ‘genetic ancestry’ versus race in biomedical human genetic research - PMC](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3124377/) > If for that nation, DNA is not a hard requirement, how would testing Mexican and Central American DNA and concluding she was telling the truth is valid? Note that all genealogical studies failed to find any Native ancestry and she claimed it was close. Try reading the general instruction for that form. They override that. And that paragraph does not mention “legal member of a recognized tribe” which is any case, has nothing to do with race. It is perfectly fine to base your \*self identification \*on a DNA test or anything, actually. The fact that " _all genealogical studies failed to find any Native ancestry"_ is meaningless as that is a racist basis. All that is necessary is that she _self identifie_s as NA. You seem to be clinging to outdated racist qualifiers of race. You are not accepting the only non racist method-_self identification ._ ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/188 "2018-12-15T00:00:10Z")
> [@Batano](#): > > But sure, go ahead and demonize someone who would be 1000x better at supporting Native American rights than whatever Republican gets elected. Heck, she’s probably better than the vast majority of Democrats. Take a quick Gander and the legislation she’s sponsored. [https://www.congress.gov/member/elizabeth-warren/W000817?q={"subject"%3A"Native+Americans"}](https://www.congress.gov/member/elizabeth-warren/W000817?q=%7B%22subject%22%3A%22Native+Americans%22%7D) Her self identification as native American may be suspect, but it has led her to be invested in supporting their interests in congress. Maybe its just me but if I were a native American and was given the choice of a woman who might be misled about her native American heritage but acts in Congress to support my community, and a old white man who knows he’s of pure European descent and doesn’t know a thing about our issues, I’d choose the former. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/189 "2018-12-15T00:09:31Z")
As a pro-colonialist you will hand wave away Dr. Kim TallBear’s tweets here, because she is from Canada, but lets try sharing her view on it which is more concise. > **[Dr. Tallbear Twitter Tutorial](https://wakelet.com/wake/57e215e9-3566-4d4e-9fc7-a9d844bb504c)** > [@](#): > > 1. Cherokee citizenship and other tribal citizenship/identities aren’t defined according to genetic ancestry markers. > 2. Great! If you have evidence of being descended in part from some ancient ancestor in the Americas. That’s interesting. > 3. But unless you can prove descent from a Cherokee person, or member of any tribe since that tribe began constructing citizenship rolls… > 4. no tribe cares if you have Native American DNA. They want to see you’re descended from one of THEIR CITIZENS. Is there a name on a roll? Note it is common for some whites, who are seeking connection to an identity outside whiteness, to claim native ancestry. > [@](#): > > [American Indian—the largest group of multiracial adults—ties to their Native American heritage are often faint: Only 22% say they have a lot in common with people in the U.S. who are American Indian, whereas 61% say they have a lot in common with whites.](http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/06/11/multiracial-in-america/) Many white Americans ignore the complex violent history that accompanied Cherokee history and trivialize the Cherokee history and culture. Even ignoring Warrens’ connection here is another > **[Why Do So Many Americans Think They Have Cherokee Blood?](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2015/10/cherokee-blood-why-do-so-many-americans-believe-they-have-cherokee-ancestry.html)** > > “I cannot say when I first heard of my Indian blood, but as a boy I heard it spoken of in a general way,” Charles Phelps, a resident of Winston-Salem... > [@](#): > > By claiming a royal Cherokee ancestor, white Southerners were legitimating the antiquity of their native-born status as sons or daughters of the South, as well as establishing their determination to defend their rights against an aggressive federal government, as they imagined the Cherokees had done. A.K.A. the same reason you see so many Confederate flags around the south today. But I have said over and over again, some people will hold their nose and vote for her, the concern is how many stay home. A lesser of two evils vote typically has low turn out which favors Trump. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/190 "2018-12-15T00:29:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Try reading the general instruction for that form. They override that. And that paragraph does not mention “legal member of a recognized tribe” which is any case, has nothing to do with race. > > It is perfectly fine to base your \*self identification \*on a DNA test or anything, actually. > The fact that " _all genealogical studies failed to find any Native ancestry"_ is meaningless as that is a racist basis. All that is necessary is that she _self identifie_s as NA. > > You seem to be clinging to outdated racist qualifiers of race. You are not accepting the only non racist method-_self identification ._ So you would support Rachel Dolezal as a candidate for president? You do realize that this false claim is so pervasive that they actually had to pass this law. > **[Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Arts_and_Crafts_Act_of_1990)** > > The Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990 (P.L. 101-644) is a truth-in-advertising law which prohibits misrepresentation in marketing of American Indian or Alaska Native arts and crafts products within the United States. It is illegal to offer or display for sale, or sell any art or craft product in a manner that falsely suggests it is Indian produced, an Indian product, or the product of a particular Indian or Indian Tribe or Indian arts and crafts organization, resident within the United States. ... Despite the fact it impacts individuals with real documented Native ancestry? Power imbalances caused by colonialism and oppression make this a sensitive subject, even if you aren’t willing to admit to that fact. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/191 "2018-12-15T00:37:22Z")
I know that actual cites won’t change minds but here is another link for those who aren’t as invested in justifying cultural appropriation. A statement from Native American and Indigenous Studies Association > [@](#): > > Belonging does not arise simply from individual feelings – it is not simply who you claim to be, **but also who claims you**. When someone articulates connections to a particular people, the measure of truth cannot simply be a person’s belief but must come from relationships with Indigenous people. > … > If we believe in Indigenous self-determination as a value and goal, then questions of identity and integrity in its expression cannot be treated as merely a distraction from supposedly more important issues. Falsifying one’s identity or relationship to particular Indigenous peoples is an act of appropriation continuous with other forms of colonial violence. [https://us8.campaign-archive.com/?u=42a60b451fd1cbd5c894f6f2b&id=b15fd225fc&e=b7bb9ee7e4](https://us8.campaign-archive.com/?u=42a60b451fd1cbd5c894f6f2b&id=b15fd225fc&e=b7bb9ee7e4) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/192 "2018-12-15T00:51:34Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > As a pro-colonialist you will hand wave away Dr. Kim TallBear’s tweets here, because she is from Canada, but lets try sharing her view on it which is more concise. > > [https://wakelet.com/wake/57e215e9-3566-4d4e-9fc7-a9d844bb504c](https://wakelet.com/wake/57e215e9-3566-4d4e-9fc7-a9d844bb504c) > > Note it is common for some whites, who are seeking connection to an identity outside whiteness, to claim native ancestry. > … > … > But I have said over and over again, some people will hold their nose and vote for her, the concern is how many stay home. A lesser of two evils vote typically has low turn out which favors Trump. Who are you calling a \*pro-colonialist \*? and she is dead and completely wrong:"_33) But unless you can prove descent from a Cherokee person, or member of any tribe since that tribe began constructing citizenship rolls… 34) no tribe cares if you have Native American DNA. They want to see you’re descended from one of THEIR CITIZENS. Is there a name on a roll?"_ She is wrong on both counts-\*you dont have to have any NA ancestry, and even if you have full NA ancestry, a tribe can still exclude you. \* The racist Cherokee nation, who you like to quote, kicked out all the Black members of their tribe, even tho those people had been “since that tribe began constructing citizenship rolls…” And, unless you are a racist, if they wish to so self identify, that is their right. Ah, so it now appears that your desire to call her a racist is based upon the fact that you don’t like her political views. Well, neither do I, but she’s not a racist. Trump is the racist her, not Warren. So, again- are you still holding to outmoded racist views on race determination, or do you agree that everyone can choose based upon\* self identification \*? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/193 "2018-12-15T00:53:16Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I know that actual cites won’t change minds but here is another link for those who aren’t as invested in justifying cultural appropriation. > > A statement from Native American and Indigenous Studies Association > > [NAISA Indigenous Identity Fraud Statement](https://us8.campaign-archive.com/?u=42a60b451fd1cbd5c894f6f2b&id=b15fd225fc&e=b7bb9ee7e4) Then they are making racist claims, since _“you dont have to have any NA ancestry, and even if you have full NA ancestry, a tribe can still exclude you”_. Racist claims you are supporting. \* Self identification \*is the only non racist method of determining race. Yes, the various tribes get to determine who is and who is not a _legal member of their tribe,_ but they do not get to determine who is and who is not a Native American. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/194 "2018-12-15T02:44:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Then they are making racist claims, since _“you dont have to have any NA ancestry, and even if you have full NA ancestry, a tribe can still exclude you”_. Racist claims you are supporting. \* Self identification \*is the only non racist method of determining race. Yes, the various tribes get to determine who is and who is not a _legal member of their tribe,_ but they do not get to determine who is and who is not a Native American. Ah…because white people are the ones with the power right? Remember just like “Negros” they didn’t choose this label, we did that. Just like those African Americans being racist by getting upset when you wear blackface or use the N word among themselves? Reverse racism created and used by white people to deny white privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/195 "2018-12-15T04:38:42Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Just like those African Americans being racist by getting upset when you wear blackface or use the N word among themselves? The thing is that there is and Native American equivalent of black face, its called["red face"](https://discourse-cloud-file-uploads.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/boingboing/optimized/3X/4/d/4dec4d3013d764b0512b6d24252807849d67aaad_1_611x500.jpeg) and its racist as fuck. To say that what Warren did is equivalent to this is an astounding level of false equivalence. If Warren puts on a head dress and announces on the Senate floor “Me seek’em to smoke piece pipe with orange chief who speaks like snake.” then I’ll agree you have something. As I indicated previously, Warren has been a huge friend the Native American tribes in her time in the senate. To reject her and an anti-Indiginous racist due to this small error in judgement is like a drowning man rejecting a life preserver because it’s the wrong color. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/196 "2018-12-15T08:11:37Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Ah…because white people are the ones with the power right? Remember just like “Negros” they didn’t choose this label, we did that. Just like those African Americans being racist by getting upset when you wear blackface or use the N word among themselves? > > Reverse racism created and used by white people to deny white privilege. This post makes no sense at all, nor is it in any way a repy to mine. You keep ignoring the fact the the Tribes select their legal members by whatever method they choose-_you dont have to have any NA ancestry, and even if you have full NA ancestry, a tribe can still exclude you_. ---
**Author:** ![Batano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b487fb/32.png) [@Batano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batano)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/197 "2018-12-15T08:17:04Z")
I’m not made of straw, so forgive me if i am being racist by using that term, but there seems to be a whole bale of strawmen here. No one in this thread, or Warren herself, are claiming that indigenous Americans are a race, or that Warren claims to be a member of any tribe, or that eugenics is a good idea, or that colonialism is/was a good thing. She got a bit too excited about a family story. Is this the windmill you want to tilt against? There is another person who is using the term Pocahontas that would appear to be a better target. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/198 "2018-12-15T18:23:22Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Nice **Ad hominem** , … > I am not a saint, but your claims are pretty absurd, but that is true of all **Ad hominem attacks**. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Despite your **ad hominem** , … > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > And moving from tu-quoque to **ad hominem attacks** proves you have no factual bases for your claim. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Your **ad hominem attack** is far more childish. And yet: > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You augment is **self justifying** not only **cultural appropriation** , … > This is **colonial racial eugenics** … > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Your attempt to argue an **alt-right style _whataboutism_ tu quoque** doesn’t change those realities. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > …are you just unaware of the complex issues with **disenfranchisement that you are advocating for**? > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Feel free to convince me that there is some reason outside of **“othering”** that one distinct group isn’t allowed to take offence without the permission of other groups though. **It would be amusing** to try and tie this concern with your claim that I was being “paternalistic racist”. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The fact that **you are lumping all native groups into “Indians”** is the problem BTW. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > **Hyperbolic straw-man** claim with exclamation points! Another hyperbolic straw-man claim with exclamation points! One last hyperbolic straw-man claim with exclamation points … > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I get that these ideas have been sold to you, but did you even read that page? **Did you choose to ignore it like people did with the eugenicists in the past?** > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > **But that is your strawman** , so why don’t you expand on it. > … yet **you will assume** that all Native peoples are the same over a longer time period because **you _can’t tell them apart_**? > …This is a **pure colonialist view** > …How to you self justify being an ally **when it is convenient for your needs** but then dismiss the same issues for the same people? > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Check **your _privilege_** > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Feel free to keep think us white people get to decide … … **you already made it clear** that unless they are important pawns **you don’t care** to chase them as tokens anyway. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > …I can’t speak to others but if **your mindset** was the majority of the party, where basic Human rights are tossed away… **Trying to out-Trump Trump** and handing the party over to the whims of **white supremacists, eugenics** and the scientific **racism** … > … **You may not have a problem with racism**. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You are well quoted above as **playing the token game** ,… > …you keep trying to ignore the _cultural cleansing_ and actual _genocide_ committed against these people… > …ignore them and I only have **your (to me) morally repugnant suggestion** above that racial equality doesn’t matter… > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It looks like **you have built quite the comfy confirmation bias** nest for yourself there, hopefully it makes you feel safe. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Ah…here comes the common **White fragility** defensive reaction of … “reverse racism” > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > …your suggestions that we shouldn’t care about and are willing to sacrifice for **your own selfish desires**. … > Quite building a blame others for not being perfect models and falling short of your expectations as a qualifier for treating them as equals. … > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > But **you** are still arguing this from the historical **racist point of view** ,… > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > …I’m not going to cut up your meat for you **like a child** forever. > …The fact that **you are woefully ill-informed** , unwilling to check previous cites and thus **probably intentionally ignorant** doesn’t mean that you get to decide if a marginalized group is offended or not… > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Strawman, … > …you are accepting her use racist pseudoscience … > **Your absurd claim** that I only ever offered two cites on this thread shows that **you are using birther like logic** , > … **you** are making claims that are based in **core racist ideals** to support them. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Your ad hominem attack is far more **childish**. If you think there is a biological basis for race feel free to provide cites, or just own the fact that **you believe in racial theories** > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > And my assumptions were correct, why are you unwilling to own **your belief in eugenics** … > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > **As a pro-colonialist you** will hand wave away Dr. Kim TallBear’s tweets here… Which is to say, just because you may know the meaning of a word, doesn’t mean you know when and when not to use it. (Say, a word like “racist”.) And yes, I feel quite pathetic for having wasted my time pulling all those quotes. As to the **OP’s** original question: > [@Dacien](#): > > Is this a non-issue, being taken more seriously than it should, or was this a catastrophic misstep for Warren that doomed her 2020 chances?.. > I dunno if it’s really that big of an issue, but what does everyone else think? I would not have thought that this rather trivial fiasco would amount to much; let alone that the woman being derided as “Pocahontas” by a blowhard bigot with an extensive track record of highly discriminatory language and action toward Native Americans and other ethnic minorities would somehow end up being the one accused of racism; but here we are going strong on Page 4! While it could and should be used as an opportunity to address issues of Native American mistreatment and racial insensitivity, I myself don’t think Warren’s claims to NA heritage and her manner of response to Trump should matter much politically, but it is clear that it matters to _some_ people. Or at least, it is clear that the idea that this _should_ matter to people is something that matters to _certain_ people. May I ask you whether _you_ also would _like_ to see this story become a major political talking point? Since you posted in Elections, do you hope it has a negative impact on Warren’s political career? ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/199 "2018-12-16T18:22:59Z")
rat avatar, I do appreciate your links in this thread. They have been informative. However, your style is a bit overbearing and your attitude that everyone else is racist is tiresome. Is the issue of Native American identity theft a real issue? Yes. Does it rise to the level of problem as throwing the term “Pocahontas” around like an epithet? You seem to think so. Having read through the tracing of her family genealogy, I am of the opinion she was misinformed about her own heritage. It would be better if she had owned up to that instead of turning to a DNA test for something that DNA testing is inadequate to address. She has fallen victim to the misunderstanding of what DNA can and cannot show, that is highly promoted by DNA testing organizations for profit. She was wrong to fall for Trump’s bait and take the test, and more wrong to post the results as if they meant something. This shows a weakness in judgement when it comes to dealing with Trump’s nonsense, and as such should be a consideration for her political future. That said, she’s still a much better option than Trump, even for Native Americans, even for members of the Cherokee Nation. Trump’s administration is actively pursuing aims that hurt Native Americans. Warren is trying to fight for them. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > From another thread: > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Batano > > I agree with the French in this case. France has a culture, they have a right to maintain it, and citizenship through natutrlisation is a privelege. The woman showed that she did not fully embrace French values. There are hundreds of other countries where she could try and become a citizen. Many of them happily oppress women and she might feel more at home in one of them. > > Thanks for confirming my fears, while you may not subscribe to the “white genocide conspiracy theory” and may not have the courage to argue what you actually want to argue; going through your previous posts demonstrates arguments that directly illustrate this is similar, if not as extreme as Trump’s alt-right base. Europeans “are losing their culture” is a well known dog whistle. WTF? This is in response to a statement that advocates that the French should be allowed to determine who has French citizenship and identity. Isn’t that exactly the argument you are making with respect to the Cherokee Nation, that they and only they get to decide who has Cherokee citizenship and identity? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/200 "2018-12-16T18:58:34Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > rat avatar, I do appreciate your links in this thread. They have been informative. However, your style is a bit overbearing and your attitude that everyone else is racist is tiresome. > > Is the issue of Native American identity theft a real issue? Yes. Does it rise to the level of problem as throwing the term “Pocahontas” around like an epithet? You seem to think so. > > Having read through the tracing of her family genealogy, I am of the opinion she was misinformed about her own heritage. It would be better if she had owned up to that instead of turning to a DNA test for something that DNA testing is inadequate to address. She has fallen victim to the misunderstanding of what DNA can and cannot show, that is highly promoted by DNA testing organizations for profit. She was wrong to fall for Trump’s bait and take the test, and more wrong to post the results as if they meant something. This shows a weakness in judgement when it comes to dealing with Trump’s nonsense, and as such should be a consideration for her political future. > > That said, she’s still a much better option than Trump, even for Native Americans, even for members of the Cherokee Nation. Trump’s administration is actively pursuing aims that hurt Native Americans. Warren is trying to fight for them. Because claiming that because one has a few markers from Central america “proves” they are North American Native American is fundamentally _racist_. Lets be clear, there is NO DNA EVIDENCE possible to link Warren to the people who are Cherokee, and even if the land-bridge theory was correct (which is not generally accepted now) their most common ancestor would be farther back than when white Europeans even existed. This ignores the sovereign structure of the Cherokee Nation and other federally recognized tribes too. > [@Irishman](#): > > WTF? This is in response to a statement that advocates that the French should be allowed to determine who has French citizenship and identity. Isn’t that exactly the argument you are making with respect to the Cherokee Nation, that they and only they get to decide who has Cherokee citizenship and identity? The poster was unwilling to defend their position, my assumptions are probably going to be wrong if they are unwilling to. Funny how you will enthusiastically argue that _white_ sovereign nations get to decide _who has citizenship and identity_ yet you deny that same right to the various _sovereign nations_ that make up the racial category of “Native American” to decide who can have _citizenship and identity._ Why are “white people” uniquely empowered to make those decisions? It looks like justifying “prejudice plus power” to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682.md?page=11)