# Elizabeth Warren Stands by DNA Test. But Around Her, Worries Abound. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 6, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682 "2018-12-06T16:33:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/141 "2018-12-12T22:21:40Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I don’t “seem to think” anything. You make up ridiculous positions for your opponents because you’ve already decided what you want to argue about and you’re all practiced up on that conversation. Here is a page that will try to explain this more for you. > **[What is ancestry?](https://medium.com/the-gencove-blog/what-is-ancestry-67c8c82cce2c)** > > This is a modified version of a blog post I initially wrote two years ago. With the increasing interest in genetic ancestry testing over… > [@](#): > > But the key is this: \*\*if we replace the currently-impossible goal of perfectly understanding the geography and ethnicity of your ancestors with the realistic goal of getting a general understanding about some of them, we can now make some progress. \*\* And here is another, non-Cherokee native voice on the subject from Dr. Kim TallBear. > **[Dr. Tallbear Twitter Tutorial](https://wakelet.com/wake/57e215e9-3566-4d4e-9fc7-a9d844bb504c)** Here is a link to the International Society of Genetic Genealogy showing even if those markers they use weren’t just specific to Central America, which isn’t known, that there is only a 50% of a recent match if her sample was phased, which it was not. [https://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal\_DNA\_match\_thresholds](https://isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA_match_thresholds) Here is a cite related to “Crania Americana” and another reason Natives are suspicious of pseudoscience and racism. > **[Skulls in print: scientific racism in the transatlantic world](https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/skulls-in-print-scientific-racism-in-the-transatlantic-world)** > > A PhD student’s research at Cambridge’s Department of History and Philosophy of Science has revealed how racist ideas and images circulated between the United You are well quoted above as playing the token game, you could concede or justify your claims. As I doubt you will read those cites, here is some from Dr. Kim TallBear’s tweets. > [@](#): > > 1. Cherokee citizenship and other tribal citizenship/identities aren’t defined according to genetic ancestry markers. > 2. Great! If you have evidence of being descended in part from some ancient ancestor in the Americas. That’s interesting. > 3. But unless you can prove descent from a Cherokee person, or member of any tribe since that tribe began constructing citizenship rolls… > 4. no tribe cares if you have Native American DNA. They want to see you’re descended from one of THEIR CITIZENS. Is there a name on a roll? Unfortunately she is trying to put food on her table and restricts some information to her book. But you keep sidestepping the issue here, which is with her claiming specific heritage and resorting to the modern form of scientific racism to justify it. If we as a country hadn’t been assholes and actively try to kill off native Americans in the past and in Warrens present her claims wouldn’t make anyone bat their eyes. The more you keep trying to ignore the _cultural cleansing_ and actual _genocide_ committed against these people the more I have to keep repeating myself. It is those _evil_ actions by our country that make this a real issue. Address that very real and specific context and we can move forward, ignore them and I only have your (to me) morally repugnant suggestion above that racial equality doesn’t matter as long as we win, and that minorities are just tools for that goal. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/142 "2018-12-12T22:29:26Z")
It makes it a real thing but “real isues” politically are things a substantial number of people care about. Nobody really gives a shit that genetics can’t prove tribal membership. Also, TallBear isn’t just a non-Cherokee she is frigging Canadian. Double plus “who gives a crap” for American voters. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/143 "2018-12-12T22:46:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It makes it a real thing but “real isues” politically are things a substantial number of people care about. Nobody really gives a shit that genetics can’t prove tribal membership. Also, TallBear isn’t just a non-Cherokee she is frigging Canadian. Double plus “who gives a crap” for American voters. Millennial electorate will grow and White, Latinx and Affrican American Millenials list racism as one of their three most important problems [https://genforwardsurvey.com/assets/uploads/2017/10/GenForward-Oct-2017-Final-Report.pdf](https://genforwardsurvey.com/assets/uploads/2017/10/GenForward-Oct-2017-Final-Report.pdf) Most think racism remains a major problem and is getting worse and they are the not only the largest voter base we have to tap, they are the only source if you decide to dehumanize people of color. Obviously people of color aren’t a unified group, but not many individuals have to switch sides or choose not to vote for it to be important. Sure in practice they may be just as racist as my Gen X generation, but they will be receptive to _factual_ evidence to affect their vote. With low turnout the silent generation and boomers will turn out more and they are more racist and will tend to side with Trump. Like I said, a simple media campaign to dispel the myths DNA companies have been selling to improve sales would invoke the sadness and concern related to racial justice. Even Kellyanne Conway abandons this BS when it is no longer convenient. > [@](#): > > [“I know that everybody likes to pick their junk science or sound science depending on the conclusion.”](https://twitter.com/JenniferJJacobs/status/1051809339881791488) In a side note, this may be the only factually correct claim I have ever heard out of Kellyanne Conway. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/144 "2018-12-12T23:02:29Z")
Of course, many of these super anti-racist millennials might not jump behind the Cherokee Nation that so recently tried to kick their slave’s descendants out. Tu qoque, you say? My goodness, millennials would never commit a logical fallacy, would they? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/145 "2018-12-12T23:12:52Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Seeing as the genetic makeup of modern Europe was established only about 4500 years ago, I guess native peoples aren’t allowed to have their own ancestry despite the longer time line? Also note that a french poodle and a chihuahua have tested with more Native DNA than Senator Warren with one service. > > [Heredity or hoax? | CBC News](https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/dna-ancestry-test) > > Indigenous heritage is not defined by DNA and tests aren’t nearly as accurate as you seem to think. The reason there is a more finely calibrated models of European origin is that the researchers generating these models have been able to collect more European samples than they have native American samples. It is easy to go to Germany and collect 1,000 German DNA from among the population of 82 Million Germans there. It is less easy to go to the Cherokee tribes and collect 1,000 Cherokee samples from a population that consists of just 300,000 people spread out in various communities. This isn’t a matter of racism its a matter of logistics. If you only have a handful of samples from each tribe there is no way you are ever going to be able to make a remotely reliable test. So the best you can hope for is to look within a larger population for markers that seem to be present in those whose ancestors were likely in the America’s pre 1942, but which are not found among those with no association with. This gives you a much larger population from which to derive a classifier, but unfortunately ends up lumping them all in together. But again this isn’t because we think all those Indians are the same, its just that in order to get enough samples to define a group we need to expand the class. Since there is a larger population with native american ancestry in south america, any test the produce is likely to be biased in the direction of being more representative of south American tribes. Which will probably mean that it will probably underestimate the proportion of native American ancestry in a person who has a mixture of races including North American Native American such as Warren proports to be. As for the Chihuahua having native American ancestry, that article seemed to be directed at a specific genetic test that purported to be able to distinguish among different tribes, but seemed fraudulent. Given the difficulty discussed above in generating such a specific test its claims are indeed probably crap. But unless Warren used that exact test I’m not sure how its relevant. Again Warren’s main crimes appear to be, 1. Believing her mother 2. Having pride in her heritage 3. Not fully understanding the cultural appropriation ramifications of expressing that pride until it was made clear to her (at which point she apologized) 4. Standing up to a racist bully who was denigrating her for expressing that pride. 5. Note being a sufficient expert in the ins and outs of genetics to immediately reject purported accuracy of a ancestry test. Which somehow adds up to her being a racist who hates the Cherokee people and should be shunned by society. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/146 "2018-12-12T23:23:32Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Elizabeth Warren has been ignoring the Cherokee elders for way longer than Trump has even been running for office. She should have sincerely apologized directly to the people she has slighted but instead she chose to use a modern form of scientific racism to try and win a debate point with a bigot. What should she be apologizing _for_? I mean, it wasnt smart to release the test or even mention it. But I dont see any reason to apologize. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/147 "2018-12-12T23:27:37Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > She says one thing and does another, like us Europeans seem to do. When she spoke in front of NCAI this February she received a standing ovation, she could have moved forward with respecting these groups but instead chose to release the DNA data. > > [Thoughts from Polly's Granddaughter: Elizabeth Warren is not a friend to Indian Country](http://www.pollysgranddaughter.com/2018/10/elizabeth-warren-is-not-friend-to.html) Yeah, the tribes get to decide who is a member of their tribe. Great. But they can and do ignore bloodlines, cutting out members of the tribe due to tribal politics or the fact that they want as bigger cut of casino profits. If you’re every bit as “fillinnameoftribehere” as another member, but they kicked you out as the cadre wants twice as much cash in their monthly stipend, does that make you not a native American at all? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/148 "2018-12-12T23:36:18Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I have to lump people in as being black or hispanic too, because that is what the reporting categories are, and the people in power, us “white people” created these labels. Despite being a social construct the effects of racism are real, and one of the arbitrary categories that is a product of that racism is “Native American”. > > Can you honestly not differentiate between the concept of a non-biological label that is used to oppress from a specific claim to belong to a specific tribe based on those same racist and artificial categories?.. > Warren has refused to talk to the Cherokee Nation leaders for years now, and has resorted to pseudo-scientific racist theories to justify an old lie. She is avoiding an apology and dehumanizing the same people she directly promised to protect. > … > She has made and continues to make promises she keeps breaking, when what was required was an apology. She has refused contact by the only group who could take offence and accept an apology, the Cherokee Nation, despite their requests and offers to talk. No, _you_ get to decide if you care to identify as Black or Hispanic, etc. Just you, no one else- except perhaps a coroner trying to ID your remains. Yes, DNA test are vague and no specific. But tribal laws are based not upon genetics, but politics. You can be a member of certain tribes by “adoption” without having a drop of NA blood. Or the tribe elders can vote to exclude you as they want more money from the casino or because they don’t like you. So you can be 1a full blooded whatever and not legally be a member of a tribe, or 2 have no NA blood at all, and also be a member of a tribe. Or 3.You can also be full NA, but the Government hasn’t recognized your tribe. So what you seem to be claiming is that person #1 is a Native American, but #2 & #3 are not?:dubious: She is not, nor ever has, claimed any benefits or actually said she is a legal member of any tribe. Hundreds of thousands of Americans are part NA and not a LEGAL member of any tribe. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/149 "2018-12-12T23:41:24Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Of course, many of these super anti-racist millennials might not jump behind the Cherokee Nation that so recently tried to kick their slave’s descendants out. Tu qoque, you say? My goodness, millennials would never commit a logical fallacy, would they? I think you are missing the point, there is no need to support the Cherokee Nation, although I assume that trying to out Trump Trumpisms will result in that whataboutery response. Denying the ethnic and cultural differences and thus erasing the identities of those who cannot choose doesn’t depend on that at all. Under your model, Mexicans, Colombians, Brazilians, Seminoles, Nez Perce, Crow or any of the 100’s of tribes aren’t allowed their identity or to control membership. > **[State Tribes](https://www.500nations.com/tribes/Tribes_State-by-State.asp)** > > Information for all North American Native American Indian tribes, nations, bands, rancheria, pueblo, federally recognized, state recognized, and petitions for recognition. Cuz to Elizabeth Warren (or her claims) they are all Negros^H^H^H^H^HIndians to her!!! Native people may identify as Native American, Indian, American Indian, Indigenous, or their tribal names, but it is _their_ choice, not some random white geneticist or senator. If you have a hard time imagining this from their point of view, try walking up to some local families of Italian or Sicilian decent and telling them that they are Negroid because of the Moorish invasions. Let me know how much they appreciate that won’t ya? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/150 "2018-12-12T23:42:30Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > … > Your arguments are suggesting that a majority race has right to rule over the minority race for its own good. … I am merely stating that Elizabeth Warren needs to directly address the group of people who stated they were offended by her claims. And that her DNA test added flames to the fire and is at minimum tone deaf but is really racist… No he is not. Yes? And so? Do you need to apologize to anyone who sez they are offended? She never made any claims she was a legal member of their tribe. They dont speak for all NAtive Americans not even all Cherokee. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/151 "2018-12-12T23:44:17Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > She claimed to be Cherokee, … Cite? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/152 "2018-12-12T23:53:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Cite? Look back for the cookbook and full documentation but here is one after the Cherokee Nation criticized her claims during the 2012 political campaign. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oIVinDXzOw) Note that the eloping story she claimed in there has been researched by many groups and is not based in fact. I provided left leaning sources, native sources etc… if you prefer Fox news google away. > **[The facts: Elizabeth Warren and her Native American ties](https://www.politifact.com/article/2017/dec/01/facts-behind-elizabeth-warren-and-her-native-ameri/)** > > Update: In October 2018, Sen. Elizabeth Warren released a DNA report showing she has Native American ancestry. We asked But feel free to ignore a new page of cites. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/153 "2018-12-13T00:04:19Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Look back for the cookbook and full documentation but here is one after the Cherokee Nation criticized her claims during the 2012 political campaign. > > [https://youtu.be/4oIVinDXzOw](https://youtu.be/4oIVinDXzOw) > > Note that the eloping story she claimed in there has been researched by many groups and is not based in fact. > > I provided left leaning sources, native sources etc… if you prefer Fox news google away. > > [PolitiFact | The facts behind Elizabeth Warren, her claimed Native American ties and Trump's 'Pocahontas' insult](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/dec/01/facts-behind-elizabeth-warren-and-her-native-ameri/) > > But feel free to ignore a new page of cites. I dont do Youtube cites. But as for the second cite- a cookbook? A freaken _cookbook_? :dubious:Before she even entered politics? that’s \*what \*you got? It is to laugh. I do so. ---
**Author:** ![Dacien](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dacien/32/5663_2.png) [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/154 "2018-12-13T00:16:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I dont do Youtube cites. > > But as for the second cite- a cookbook? A freaken _cookbook_? :dubious:Before she even entered politics? that’s \*what \*you got? It is to laugh. > > I do so. I think the claim of being Cherokee in the cookbook, when taken together with everything else, (e.g. listing herself as “minority” in a hiring directory, being touted as a faculty member “of color” (gee, where did they get that idea?), etc.) definitely lends credibility in my mind that she presented herself this way, that presenting herself as Native American (specifically Cherokee) was more likely than not a thing that she did. And it was all baloney. Which, it wouldn’t be such a big deal if she had just said, “I guess I was wrong all these years. Based on my family stories I believed I was Native American, but I guess I’m not.” But she didn’t do that. She instead touted her DNA test as proof that she’s every bit the Native American she always said she was. And she’s not. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/155 "2018-12-13T00:22:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No he is not. > > Yes? And so? Do you need to apologize to anyone who sez they are offended? She never made any claims she was a legal member of their tribe. They dont speak for all NAtive Americans not even all Cherokee. There is no social cost for white americans being racist against native peoples right now, but don’t take that comment out of context. That was related to a claim she had apologized, which she hasn’t. But yes in general to apologize about insulting someone you typically have to apologize to the people you insulted, and as that is all the Cherokee Nation was asking for it was a pretty simple task for her to do, and their requests are why Trumps researchers found this info. There is no one _Native America_n culture, 567 federally recognized Indian nations across the United States with more cultural and language diversity than in Europe. If you can’t get why you can’t apologize to a non-culture Native American, and doing so when you claimed connection to a single group (fyi her family said that the Delaware side merged with the Cherokee Nation) perhaps this link will help you start to understand how diverse of a group of people are lumped in this racist category. [http://www.ncai.org/about-tribes](http://www.ncai.org/about-tribes) ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/156 "2018-12-13T00:24:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I dont do Youtube cites. > > But as for the second cite- a cookbook? A freaken _cookbook_? :dubious:Before she even entered politics? that’s \*what \*you got? It is to laugh. > > I do so. How convenient that you ignore her political ad from the 2012 campaign because it is on youtube, and hand wave away pages of cites. Sorry but I can’t exactly hand you a VHS tape of it. It looks like you have built quite the comfy confirmation bias nest for yourself there, hopefully it makes you feel safe. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/157 "2018-12-13T00:31:26Z")
The Cherokee Nation kinda sounds like grandstanding racist assholes. Don’t think they specifically deserve an apology just because they make a big show of being offended by something that didn’t really happen. If she had claimed membership to their tribe, they would have special standing to be offended. As it stands, they don’t. So, if they won’t accept Warren’s generalized statements to not be claiming anything other family heritage, fuck em. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/158 "2018-12-13T00:35:22Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The Cherokee Nation kinda sounds like grandstanding racist assholes. Don’t think they specifically deserve an apology just because they make a big show of being offended by something that didn’t really happen. If she had claimed membership to their tribe, they would have special standing to be offended. As it stands, they don’t. So, if they won’t accept Warren’s generalized statements to not be claiming anything other family heritage, fuck em. Ah…here comes the common White fragility defensive reaction of … “reverse racism” Does this mean we start the page long battle of picking a word that means “prejudice plus power”? Tell you what, pick any word and I’ll accept it if you agree to agree that it has that meaning. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/159 "2018-12-13T00:45:35Z")
Reverse racism? They voted to kick black people out of the tribe. That’s racism racism. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682/160 "2018-12-13T01:22:16Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Reverse racism? They voted to kick black people out of the tribe. That’s racism racism. You know if you didn’t dismiss when people point you at websites about logical fallacies, perhaps you would learn a few things. Especially in this type of situation where there is absolutely zero possibility we can ever understand another persons experiences. I get you are trying to take the heat off of your previous statements and probably can’t defend your argument, but trying to shift the focus back the tribe as not being perfect doesn’t remove the larger impact of racist policies against Native individuals. I seriously believe you are far smarter and stronger to get stuck at this stage. A minority group not being completely sin free is not justification to continue the oppression you are are suggesting committing. It is red herring to expect people to be perfect before you will treat them like like equals. Especially with the way we also treat people with African lineages. The ironic thing, white fragility is directly related to perceived attacks on white identity, this is quite similar to self identity of self that Elizabeth Warren actions and your suggestions that we shouldn’t care about and are willing to sacrifice for your own selfish desires. Quite building a blame others for not being perfect models and falling short of your expectations as a qualifier for treating them as equals. As you ducked my offer to let you to even invent a word to describe the concept of “prejudice plus power” we can’t even have a conversation. Because you are following the same protective path into a safe hole that people have when us whites are confronted with institutionalized racism and other groups. You are better than this, but just deal with the fact that the conversation will start out uncomfortable and that you will like your self better in the end. As all individuals and groups of minorities are made up of…humans, none of them are perfect. That fact doesn’t excuse addressing the racist power imbalance that you have a unique ability to help short circuit. Don’t sell yourself short by justifying that inequality because it is uncomfortable to talk about. None of us will ever be color blind, and the only reason to fill guilty for being born white should be if you decide to avoid discomfort by allowing others to suffer greatly merely due to their race. Doing nothing is the evil choice and I have a feeling you are far better of a human being than to let that happen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warren-stands-by-dna-test-but-around-her-worries-abound/825682.md?page=9)