# Elizabeth Warren's wealth tax **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 22, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135 "2019-10-22T14:47:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/101 "2019-10-24T18:59:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The point of the estate tax is that generational wealth transfers are anti-merit and if we are going to fund a government, it should be by taxing people who haven’t done anything to earn their money. The point of the estate tax is to tax deep pockets, just like any other tax, and that is what Warren wants to do (see subject). ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/102 "2019-10-24T19:34:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Bone** , there’s no chance that any policy any politician is proposing could conceivably lead to triple or quadruple taxation, because 3 or 4 times is far too low a number. By my back-of-the-envelope estimate, most money ends up getting taxed about 50 times. The only way to get the number down to 3 or 4 is if you either stop all transactions after a dollar has changed hands 3 or 4 times, or grow the money supply so quickly that after 3 or 4 transactions, the money you had is dwarfed by new money. Either one would be absolutely disastrous for the economy. Yes money is taxed repeatedly as it is used in various transactions, but that’s not what I’ve been talking about. I’m talking about money that is taxed multiple times without any underlying transaction. That doesn’t really happen right now. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/103 "2019-10-24T19:40:38Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Yes money is taxed repeatedly as it is used in various transactions, but that’s not what I’ve been talking about. I’m talking about money that is taxed multiple times without any underlying transaction. That doesn’t really happen right now. If several taxes are applied on one transaction, does that violate this principle? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/104 "2019-10-24T19:51:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If several taxes are applied on one transaction, does that violate this principle? Why or why not? I’d need an example, but I’m thinking like you buy something at the store, and there is a city levied sales tax, and a state levied sales tax. That would fit, but because of different jurisdictions it wouldn’t be double taxation in the sense I’m thinking. To fit, it would be more like you earn $100 and the feds tax you 10% when you get it so you are left with $90 and you put it under your bed. Then the next month, they tax you another 10% and you owe an additional $9 without engaging in any other activity. It’d be like putting a decay rate on money, or an interest cost for the privilege of holding money. Ultimately it’s a value judgment whether you are okay with double taxation. You seem to be fine with it. I’d be opposed. But right now, it doesn’t happen so if we move to a scenario where it does happen, that’d be a change. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/105 "2019-10-24T20:21:38Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’d need an example, but I’m thinking like you buy something at the store, and there is a city levied sales tax, and a state levied sales tax. That would fit, but because of different jurisdictions it wouldn’t be double taxation in the sense I’m thinking. To fit, it would be more like you earn $100 and the feds tax you 10% when you get it so you are left with $90 and you put it under your bed. The example I’m thinking of is that when I get a paycheck, it is subject to Federal income tax, two Federal payroll taxes, and a local income tax. One transaction, four taxes, three of which are Federal. But if you’re talking about money at rest, is it that you object to taxation when there hasn’t been a transaction? Like, annual property taxes on things you own (and are not being purchased)? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/106 "2019-10-24T23:38:16Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Yes money is taxed repeatedly as it is used in various transactions, but that’s not what I’ve been talking about. I’m talking about money that is taxed multiple times without any underlying transaction. That doesn’t really happen right now. It does in one obvious place: real property. There’s already a wealth tax for everyone in the lower 95% because the majority of their wealth (for those of them who have any wealth) is in their house. It’s only the really rich who don’t pay a percentage of their wealth in taxes. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/107 "2019-10-24T23:41:06Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I guess it’s another thread but I oppose estate taxes, as well as gift taxes (even though I am not affected by them). I think that a transfer of assets that does not create economic value should not be taxed. Currently when you inherit property you get to change the cost basis to the value at teh time you inherit. So the “income” of the capital gain is not taxed. If you eliminated the estate tax completely, you should certainly change this so the the capital gains would not escape taxation. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/108 "2019-10-24T23:43:12Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The example I’m thinking of is that when I get a paycheck, it is subject to Federal income tax, two Federal payroll taxes, and a local income tax. One transaction, four taxes, three of which are Federal. > > But if you’re talking about money at rest, is it that you object to taxation when there hasn’t been a transaction? Like, annual property taxes on things you own (and are not being purchased)? You can get OASDI, and a bunch of other federal taxes all levied but they are essentially different taxes applying to the same transaction. So OASDI may be 7.65%, but 6.2 is one component and the 1.45 is another, but those aren’t going to the same place so I don’t consider them the same tax. That multiple things may aggregate together doesn’t necessarily mean double taxation. Yes, I object to taxation when there isn’t a transaction. Real property taxes are slightly different. First it’s state, not fed so the taxing power is different. But second, my thinking on this is that you own the land but receive certain services in connection with that ownership and as a result the annual tax levy is a more efficient way of collecting than it would be to do it piecemeal. But on a federal level, there just isn’t a thing where money at rest is taxed. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/109 "2019-10-25T00:07:12Z")
I don’t love the idea of a wealth tax but I think a tax focused on people with over $50M really is a different kettle of fish. It’s not about hating the rich, it’s just that is a huge chunk of change to be sitting idle. Economists often worry about people saving too much, the 1%ers are more an issue on that front than the rest of the country combined. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/110 "2019-10-25T00:10:23Z")
It’s not like 1%ers are just sitting on piles of cash. Their money (most of it at least) is invested in various ways, working in the economy. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/111 "2019-10-25T00:14:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s not like 1%ers are just sitting on piles of cash. Their money (most of it at least) is invested in various ways, working in the economy. Some of it is, some of it isn’t. If you have a $5M cottage in Martha’s Vineyard, that you intend to leave to your grandchildren, that’s not invested in the economy ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/112 "2019-10-25T01:02:23Z")
> [@chargerrich](#): > > A consumer tax gives the individual more flexibility in when and how they are taxed as well as taxing more proportionally based on income as billionaires are taxed on their yachts, ferraris and beach homes while the average Joe is taxed on bread and milk. 😕 How is this more proportional based on income? Do you think that billionaires spend more, proportionally, on yachts, ferraris, and beach homes than average Joes spend on bread and milk? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/113 "2019-10-25T04:56:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s not like 1%ers are just sitting on piles of cash. Their money (most of it at least) is invested in various ways, working in the economy. This presupposes their money in invested \*in \*the national economy. Mostly it’s not. I guess you could make a sort of Adamsmithian argument that investing in Ukrainian or Chinese businesses helps \*America \*akshully because it helps Chinese businesses churn out the best goods and services that China can make in some sectors which they can in turn exchange for the best goods and services America can make in other sectors and everybody wins, hurray. But to the extent it is true it’s a very long term, diffuse, almost abstract social benefit while taxing their golden cocks off provides a more immediate and tangible redistributive one. Plus I fail to see how a Rembrandt stashed in a bank vault works in the economy 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/114 "2019-10-25T16:43:38Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m all for taxing the rich, but… I just can’t see how this would be an efficient thing to implement. > > I say this because I have to do an annual financial disclosure, and even though I’m of MUCH more modest means than billionaires, the process of counting up my assets is very difficult and time-consuming for me to do, and I would think it would be a total nightmare for anyone trying to double-check that I’m not cheating. How anyone could look at a billionaire’s financial assets and have any confidence at all that there isn’t massive cheating strikes me as extremely implausible. We do it with the estate tax all the time. > [@](#): > > Why not close tax loopholes, raise rates, and hire more IRS auditors that can go through income tax returns for the richest? Warren isn’t stupid, so I just have to think I’m missing something as to why she isn’t proposing the most direct means of taxing the rich. They’ve been trying to address the tax gap for decades. Noone wants to fund the IRS. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/115 "2019-10-25T16:47:48Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I don’t think this is the right way to think about it. Typically what is taxed isn’t the money itself, but a transaction. With income tax, the transaction is you exchanging services for payment - there is a tax to that transaction. With sales tax, the transaction is exchanging money for goods - there is a tax to that transaction. This isn’t double taxation because the money isn’t being taxed, rather the underlying transactions are being taxed. This is not so with a wealth tax. > > With a wealth tax, there is no actual underlying transaction being taxed. There’s simply a tax for existing. I’m not familiar with anything else that works that way. You ever pay real estate taxes? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/116 "2019-10-25T16:52:59Z")
I wonder if a national property tax could serve similar purposes – exempt the first $1 million (or so) of one’s primary residence, and all other real estate property gets dinged at .5% per year, or something like that. EDIT: Might not be constitutional; I’m not sure. Maybe could be tweaked to get by the direct-tax limitations (i.e. each state gets a portion under the above principle, or something like that). ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/117 "2019-10-25T17:36:33Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We do it with the estate tax all the time. Maximum once per life, at not insubstantial cost. And Warren says we need to change the procedure but details are scant. Hence the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/118 "2019-10-25T17:38:05Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > This presupposes their money in invested \*in \*the national economy. Mostly it’s not. This isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/119 "2019-10-25T18:18:41Z")
Even before I heard of Warren’s plan I have converted to a wealth tax supporter, leaving aside the scant chance that it could be implemented. We’re no longer in a long-term debt crisis but a medium one, so we need to take semi-drastic measures to confront it. I think that if we implement a wealth tax we can let the payers use it to offset estate taxes - the treasury would still come out ahead due to inflation and any payments beyond the estate tax, and we need the money now and not 20-30 years down the road. In the long term we can eliminate the estate tax because the only people who should be paying it are ones who should be paying the wealth tax as well. We also need to reduce the ability to hide the money in trusts. Possibly a greatly extended gift tax exemption but have it apply to _all_ recipients, so you would only be able to set aside a low six figure amount every year to a trust or your heirs, but not both. This would further enable the merely rich to plan for a managed transfer of wealth. Hit everything beyond this exemption _hard_. (Charitable gifts would be okay as long as there was no quid pro quo and no control between the giver and the charity.) The “fleeing megawealthy” problem is the easiest to solve, much easier than the problem of valuation or constitutionality. Just don’t let anyone back into the country if they haven’t paid their tax, even if they renounce their citizenship. Not a lot of people are willing to forego America for the sake of a few more millions in their billionaire’s bank account. I’m not sure that I’d go so far as to prevent them from _leaving_ like some have proposed. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135/120 "2019-10-25T18:24:20Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You ever pay real estate taxes? Reading the thread before you multipost tends to resolve a lot of questions. Whatever floats your boat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax/842135.md?page=7)