# Ellen Degeneres gets called out for hypocrisy - or does she? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-degeneres-gets-called-out-for-hypocrisy-or-does-she/800013 "2017-10-27T19:53:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-degeneres-gets-called-out-for-hypocrisy-or-does-she/800013/41 "2017-10-29T01:51:44Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Yes, it is OK to make fun of white people, straight people, and men. I’m not sure how you got from “making fun of” to “discriminating against.” **But not allowing men to objectify women, while allowing women to parody men doing that, is not discrimination** , and having different rules for the people with the power to make sure they don’t abuse it is not discrimination either. That’s why I can call myself a Yid, and you can’t. It’s also why a Jew can be president of Harvard, but a gentile shouldn’t be president of Yeshiva University. > > Also, since straight, white men are the majority in the US, and this happened in the US, the discussion is taking place on a board under the auspices of the US, it’s pretty much irrelevant that white people may be a world-wide minority. Yes that very well is discrimination. What “parody” are you speaking of? Ellen DeGeneres is a lesbian. Her ogling a woman’s tits is just as sexual as a straight man doing it. And as I discussed above in response to other posters-how do Jewish people not have power in America? They have [almost 3 times as many Congressmen per capita](https://www.timesofisrael.com/almost-6-of-congress-now-jewish-28-democrats-and-2-republicans/) than the rest of the population, more education and more wealth than the average American. And extreme over-representation in the media-something like half of the big names in Hollywood and the news industry are Jewish compared to just 2 percent of the overall US public. Why is it OK to make fun of men but not women on the basis of “power”? The majority of people at the very bottom of society-the homeless, prisoners, murder victims, people killed and crippled at work and in war, are men. They vastly outnumber the politicians and CEO’s that have the “power” that feminists speak of. Men are not a collective entity; a CEO being a man does not help 100 homeless men in any way whatsoever. Wealthy men do not share their wealth with other men in general. They share it with their wives, and with their children and other relatives, 50% of whom are female. BTW, I did not bring up the race/ethnic issue. It was a response to others reciting the leftist dogma about “punching up” against white people. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-degeneres-gets-called-out-for-hypocrisy-or-does-she/800013/42 "2017-10-29T02:05:11Z")
With regard to the OP’s actual question, I think that had a straight male friend of Perry’s made exactly the same joke in the same context, it would have been _less_ controversial than a lesbian doing so. I also suspect that whatever criticism this hypothetical straight man did receive would have caused many of the same people who are upset now to rush to defend him from the “PC police”. Quite a few would have thrown in some slut-shaming of Perry for good measure. I believe this would have happened even (or perhaps especially) if Perry had publicly objected to the joke. Of course, my speculation about what would happen in a counterfactual situation is just that – speculation. But so is everyone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-degeneres-gets-called-out-for-hypocrisy-or-does-she/800013/43 "2017-10-29T02:08:21Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > It doesn’t matter that Jews are white. You can compare the average of a group to the average of a group within that group. You can compare the wealth of black Americans to that of all Americans, and so forth. > > No, there haven’t been any Jewish presidents yet. But as I explained, they’re wildly over-represented everywhere else. I don’t have a problem with that, but leftists would if they were consistent about their principles. The point is that they’re wealthier than whites on average, more educated, and have more political power in the US on a _per capita_ basis than any other group. According to the leftist principles about power, privilege and “punching up”, they should be the ones apologizing the most for their “Jewish privilege” of being born to wealthy, educated, low-crime families, if all whites are supposed to apologize for “white privilege”. Same goes for Asians in terms of wealth and education, probably not political power so much though. > > But they won’t say that, because it would show how ugly and racist current leftist thought is if it was applied consistently. “Punching up” is fine when generalizing about groups in most cases, but it’s NEVER all right when dealing with individuals. It is perfectly normal for a minority or female to be in a position of advantage over a white male, and if they think it’s okay to give him a hard time they are very wrong and becoming what they supposedly say they hate. Of course most people only hate it when they are the ones on the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-degeneres-gets-called-out-for-hypocrisy-or-does-she/800013/44 "2017-10-29T02:21:47Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > Yes that very well is discrimination. What “parody” are you speaking of? Ellen DeGeneres is a lesbian. Her ogling a woman’s tits is just as sexual as a straight man doing it. > > And as I discussed above in response to other posters-how do Jewish people not have power in America? They have [almost 3 times as many Congressmen per capita](https://www.timesofisrael.com/almost-6-of-congress-now-jewish-28-democrats-and-2-republicans/) than the rest of the population, more education and more wealth than the average American. And extreme over-representation in the media-something like half of the big names in Hollywood and the news industry are Jewish compared to just 2 percent of the overall US public. > > Why is it OK to make fun of men but not women on the basis of “power”? The majority of people at the very bottom of society-the homeless, prisoners, murder victims, people killed and crippled at work and in war, are men. They vastly outnumber the politicians and CEO’s that have the “power” that feminists speak of. Men are not a collective entity; a CEO being a man does not help 100 homeless men in any way whatsoever. Wealthy men do not share their wealth with other men in general. They share it with their wives, and with their children and other relatives, 50% of whom are female. > > BTW, I did not bring up the race/ethnic issue. It was a response to others reciting the leftist dogma about “punching up” against white people. Geez, I’m sorry I mentioned Jews. I only did it because I remembered the Seinfeld episode. Allow me to change my original post: … It’s OK to make fun of yourself and 'your people". Jeff Foxworthy never got in trouble for his anti-white “you may be a redneck…” bits. **John Mulaney is a Catholic comedian and makes fun of Catholics all the time**. Black Jeopardy is a whole lot of black stereotypes, done for humorous purpose by black people… ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-degeneres-gets-called-out-for-hypocrisy-or-does-she/800013/45 "2017-10-29T02:41:23Z")
No, my point still stands. If it’s okay to “punch up” at white people on the basis of power and wealth-which is what I was originally responding to-than it should be even more okay to “punch up” at Asians and Jews, according to that logic. But it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-degeneres-gets-called-out-for-hypocrisy-or-does-she/800013/46 "2017-10-29T03:01:05Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > No, my point still stands. If it’s okay to “punch up” at white people on the basis of power and wealth-which is what I was originally responding to-than it should be even more okay to “punch up” at Asians and Jews, according to that logic. But it isn’t. OK, this is my last response to you, since I find this pretty unpleasant and I’m here to enjoy my time. Even if Jews or Asians or Catholics or whoever have _disproportionate_ power doesn’t mean they are the most powerful. Do you understand that? However, if you want to start a comedy routine doing “me so solly” and “Jews are so cheap” jokes, go for it. So, enjoy your self-righteous anger. I’m out of here. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-degeneres-gets-called-out-for-hypocrisy-or-does-she/800013/47 "2017-10-29T03:13:31Z")
It just shows how complicated that issue is. Yes, Jews and Asians have disproportionate power and wealth, BUT they aren’t the only successful minorities in the world. In the end, real power lies in force if the majority is wiling to use it. The Tutsis found that out the hard way. No matter how downtrodden a majority is, it ALWAYS has the power when aroused, which is why it’s not only not okay to “punch up” at successful minorities, it’s actually dangerous. Poking fun is fine though, IMO. People need to quit being uptight. It should be okay to make fun of anyone as long as you aren’t mean about it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-degeneres-gets-called-out-for-hypocrisy-or-does-she/800013/48 "2017-10-29T03:18:47Z")
Considering that this was joke between friends, wouldn’t this be a case of punching sideways? ---
**Author:** ![Warm\_blood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Warm\_blood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Warm_blood)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-degeneres-gets-called-out-for-hypocrisy-or-does-she/800013/49 "2017-11-02T09:07:25Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I’m going to take the contrarian view on this one. > > The thing is, the vast majority of the discussion I’ve seen on this has been framed as “Isn’t it terrible that some guys are saying they should have permission to do the same?”. And I think the discussion is being framed that way because actually, what she did is borderline, and it does make us ask uncomfortable questions, and many of us would rather go back to more black-and-white territory. > > I’ll start by knocking over the straw men: Yes, context is important with these things, and there are good reasons why women can get away with making certain kinds of sexy joke, or minorities can joke about race. And yes, that’s why if there are guys out there wanting permission to say/do something like this, they’re jerks. > > But the problem with the joke is threefold: > > 1. It’s disrespectful. Now, some of you guys are saying “Hey they’re friends, Katy probably let her do this” and so on. But think about this: should young girls assume that they can post pictures like that, or add captions like that for their friends? > The answer is of course not. If Katy gave permission for the photo + caption, that helps a lot, but we can’t know that just from looking at the shot. > > 2. Timing. With the wave of sexual harassment cases recently, and #MeToo etc, it really struck a bum note. She goes ahead and does the thing that we’re collectively trying to reinforce is _not OK_. > Context matters about _who can tell what jokes_ but context \*also \*matters in the wider sense of our shared culture. > > 3. It’s not funny. You can get away with a lot if you’re funny doing it, but this was pretty juvenile. > > So all in all, Ellen needs to face this and make some token apology at least. Perhaps she’s already done this, I don’t follow twitter. If she handwaves it, it is sending a bad message IMO. > [@Mijin](#): > > I agree with everything you’ve said there **RitterSport** ; it’s true that it matters who’s telling what kind of joke. But does that mean it’s impossible for Ellen to tell an offensive joke about women? Obviously not. > > This one is borderline, like I say, because we’re trying to show solidarity on sexual harassment and objectification right now. And even if Katy is OK with it (and of course flaunting sex appeal is a big part of her act) are we saying it’s OK for girls to emulate this style of joke, and if the target of the photo is offended they are “humor impaired”? > > Ellen doesn’t need to do some grand apology, just some little note of “OK it might not have been in the best taste, but Katy knew I was doing that kind of photo and it’s all good”. You seriously believe young girls haven’t been playfully eyeing and grabbing each other’s boobs long before this photo went into circulation? Get real. What “bad message” is this sending? That goofing around with your friends is immoral? Spare me the pearl clutching. Ellen doesn’t owe anyone not named Katy Perry an apology, and her absence of an explicit, public declaration of consent in response to this photo doesn’t mean she felt violated and that we’re right to leap to that assumption when the context speaks for itself. Anyone expecting an apology because their sensibilities were offended despite not being the “victim” in this scenario can firmly dislodge the sticks from their asses and get over themselves. It’s a blatant attempt at politicizing a non-event. Men didn’t give a flying fig about female-on-female assault prior to the recent spate of public male figures being taken down by allegations of sexual assault. If anything, girl-on-girl action of any kind was/is considered hot by the very same men feigning outrage right now who likely don’t ever take the time out of their day to ponder about consent between women. If they were truly concerned about double standards, they wouldn’t choose such an innocuous photo and suspicious timing to raise their hackles over that perceived unfairness. I mean, this isn’t the first time this particular photo has seen the light of day, why did it take so long for people to become offended? There’s an obvious agenda behind all of this “concern” and it has naught to do with wanting to protect women from sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-degeneres-gets-called-out-for-hypocrisy-or-does-she/800013/50 "2017-11-02T15:31:04Z")
> [@Warm\_blood](#): > > You seriously believe young girls haven’t been playfully eyeing and grabbing each other’s boobs long before this photo went into circulation? No. I don’t know why you’re asking me that question. The point I was making is that the way the photo was done gives the appearance of Katy not being aware of what Ellen was doing, and then Ellen shared the picture with a juvenile caption. Now, as it happens we now know it was a posed photo and it’s all good. But in the meantime, it was not a good example to set. While girls playfully grabbing each others boobs or whatever is very common, people being upset by pictures that sexualize or disrespect them is also a common occurrence. Just so we’re clear: I would say the same thing about, say, a male celeb pointing at a male celeb’s crotch bulge in a photo, where the second guy looks oblivious, and then sharing the pic with a silly caption. It would be in bad taste and sending the wrong message especially at this time. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-degeneres-gets-called-out-for-hypocrisy-or-does-she/800013/51 "2017-11-02T15:46:24Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Yes, it is OK to make fun of white people, straight people, and men. I’m not sure how you got from “making fun of” to “discriminating against.” But not allowing men to objectify women, while allowing women to parody men doing that, is not discrimination, and having different rules for the people with the power to make sure they don’t abuse it is not discrimination either. That’s why I can call myself a Yid, and you can’t. It’s also why a Jew can be president of Harvard, but a gentile shouldn’t be president of Yeshiva University. > > Also, since straight, white men are the majority in the US, and this happened in the US, the discussion is taking place on a board under the auspices of the US, it’s pretty much irrelevant that white people may be a world-wide minority. Is this what is meant by doublespeak? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-degeneres-gets-called-out-for-hypocrisy-or-does-she/800013.md?page=2)