# Ellen Page is trans/nonbinary now, name is Elliot **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 1, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940 "2020-12-01T18:09:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/61 "2020-12-02T15:57:50Z")
Ditto. I have a friend who identifies as non-binary whose preferred pronoun is she. Do I understand it? No. But thankfully that isn’t really necessary. But I can certainly see someone scratching their head wondering how someone who says she’s a she can be non-binary. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/62 "2020-12-02T16:03:51Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > But I can certainly see someone scratching their head wondering how someone who says she’s a she can be non-binary. This is where I am in my understanding. I think I get what nonbinary is, but I don’t really get how a nonbinary person chooses “he” or “she.” I also think but I’m not entirely sure I understand what “genderqueer” means. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/63 "2020-12-02T16:03:53Z")
There is a trans man who does porn but did not get any surgery below the belt. Can’t recall his name. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/64 "2020-12-02T16:10:56Z")
Buck Angel? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/65 "2020-12-02T16:32:20Z")
Yeah, I’m not really sure I get the whole nonbinary gender thing either. Not trying to be judgmental or anything. I’m just trying to understand the concept here. So you have people who are born biologically male or female. You have people who are gay or lesbian who are sexually attracted to people who are of the same biological sex. After that, I get confused. Like what qualifies someone to be a transvestite? A man simply dressing up in high heels, women’s clothing and makeup seems to me to be a fairly arbitrary affectation of culture. As would be adopting traditionally feminine or masculine mannerisms. Like what makes Elliot Page a “man”, instead of a woman who prefers sex with women, wears her hair short and doesn’t like wearing makeup or feminine clothing? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/66 "2020-12-02T16:45:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Call me a silly old sentimental goose, but I think it’s perfectly reasonable to default to assuming that a married couple that have not announced plans to separate are happy with staying married to each other. > > Yes, that assumption will sometimes eventually turn out to be wrong, but I think it makes more sense than trying to second-guess the relationship decisions of total strangers based on superficial information about their gender identity or sexual orientation or whatnot. That’s reasonable. But I feel it’s also reasonable to suggest there is the unfortunate possibility of a break up. My point has been that we’re talking about possibilities. What I have objected to is the certainty that a poster has been expressing in their posts when there is no basis for that certainty. And the claim that anyone who disagrees with their certainty must lack their understanding of the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/67 "2020-12-02T17:06:55Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Like what makes Elliot Page a “man”, instead of a woman who prefers sex with women, wears her hair short and doesn’t like wearing makeup or feminine clothing? I don’t really get this either, but, on the other hand, I was born in the “Free to Be You and Me” era when girls were told they could be and do and like whatever they wanted, and not fifteen years later, when every single toy and clothing item for children was gendered, and the “for girls” versions were universally and aggressively PINK. I really wonder if there’s a connection between the rigidity of the gendered expectations people experience during childhood, and their tendency to identify as something other than their biological sex later on. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/68 "2020-12-02T17:21:28Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > It seems to me that there are two main possibilities - either the individual has shared this huge aspect of who they are with their spouse, from before getting married, or they have kept that a secret. From what I’ve read, the former was the case for Morris and Tuckniss, which helps explain why their marriage was so successful even through its legally mandated dissolution and subsequent concealment. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/69 "2020-12-02T17:36:43Z")
Buck Angel sounds right . ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/70 "2020-12-02T18:13:09Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > Like what makes Elliot Page a “man”, instead of a woman who prefers sex with women, wears her hair short and doesn’t like wearing makeup or feminine clothing? > > I don’t really get this either, but, on the other hand, I was born in the “Free to Be You and Me” era when girls were told they could be and do and like whatever they wanted, and not fifteen years later, when every single toy and clothing item for children was gendered, and the “for girls” versions were universally and aggressively PINK. I really wonder if there’s a connection between the rigidity of the gendered expectations people experience during childhood, and their tendency to identify as something other than their biological sex later on. I don’t know. I’m not sure what era you are talking about where there wasn’t pretty defined expectations on what “women” and “men” looked liked, acted, etc. It creates some odd questions too. Like if I thought Elliot page was cute in Inception when he went by Ellen, does that make me “gay”? Physically it’s still the same person. Or in the episodes of Always Sunny in Philadelphia where Brittany Daniels played a transvestite, who eventually had an operation to change “his” gender to biological female. The in-show joke is that Charlie Day’s character starts questioning his own sexuality because he is attracted to a transsexual who convincingly looks like an attractive woman. Of course, the reality is that the actress actually is a woman, regardless of what the script says. I’m just wondering how this is different? I mean, it has to be more than just about pronouns. I can inisist people start calling me “señor msmith537”, that that doesn’t make me Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/71 "2020-12-02T18:36:23Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t know. I’m not sure what era you are talking about where there wasn’t pretty defined expectations on what “women” and “men” looked liked, acted, etc. I was born in 1976, so when I was a kid, Lego ads aimed at girls were like [this](http://www.whatitisisbeautiful.com/1981-lego-ad). Nowadays, they are apparently like [this](https://www.ispot.tv/ad/7YvE/lego-friends-olivia-house). I take your point that there have always been gendered expectations about appearance and behavior, but the level of intensity and rigidity has ebbed and flowed over the years. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/72 "2020-12-02T19:02:47Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is where I am in my understanding. I think I get what nonbinary is, but I don’t really get how a nonbinary person chooses “he” or “she.” Some people are more comfortable with singular pronouns. Some people are trying to make things easy for their older relatives. And just like sexual attraction is a spectrum, so is gender identity. Sometime can feel they don’t completely identify with either gender, but lean close enough to one side to use those pronouns. > [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > Like what makes Elliot Page a “man”, instead of a woman who prefers sex with women, wears her hair short and doesn’t like wearing makeup or feminine clothing? > > I don’t really get this either, but, on the other hand, I was born in the “Free to Be You and Me” era when girls were told they could be and do and like whatever they wanted, and not fifteen years later, when every single toy and clothing item for children was gendered, and the “for girls” versions were universally and aggressively PINK. I really wonder if there’s a connection between the rigidity of the gendered expectations people experience during childhood, and their tendency to identify as something other than their biological sex later on. Yeah, i, too, grew up in the “women can do anything” era, and I benefitted from that. I’m a non-gender-conforming women, and as a girl, i was always allowed to do boy stuff, and rarely forced to do girl stuff. I think it’s one of the reasons I’ve never had any strong gender dysphoria. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/73 "2020-12-02T20:34:07Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yeah, i, too, grew up in the “women can do anything” era, and I benefitted from that. I’m a non-gender-conforming women, and as a girl, i was always allowed to do boy stuff, and rarely forced to do girl stuff. I think it’s one of the reasons I’ve never had any strong gender dysphoria. One of my good friends is a mid 20s year old woman who had strong gender dysphoria when was a teen. She decided to stay as a woman, but I never thought that she was ‘acting like a man’ or anything. She was a woman who liked to cut her hair short, wear boots, and go on nature hikes. I sometimes wonder if something happened which reinforced some stricter gender norms in the 00s. Granted when I was in high school in the 90s, there definitely could be people who felt they were more the other gender, but just acted less gender conforming rather than questioning if they were the right gender (which was much less acceptable then). ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/74 "2020-12-02T20:47:12Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yeah, I’m not really sure I get the whole nonbinary gender thing either. Not trying to be judgmental or anything. I’m just trying to understand the concept here. > > So you have people who are born biologically male or female. > > You have people who are gay or lesbian who are sexually attracted to people who are of the same biological sex. > > After that, I get confused. > > Like what qualifies someone to be a transvestite? A man simply dressing up in high heels, women’s clothing and makeup seems to me to be a fairly arbitrary affectation of culture. As would be adopting traditionally feminine or masculine mannerisms. > > Like what makes Elliot Page a “man”, instead of a woman who prefers sex with women, wears her hair short and doesn’t like wearing makeup or feminine clothing? The answer is that there are different, but interconnected, elements in play here: **Gender identity** is the gender a person _internally_ identifies as. In trans people this is different from their “ **gender assigned at birth** ” (which may in turn actually differ from their chromosomal makeup, but that’s a whole other subject). Conversely, **gender expression or gender presentation** is (to borrow the Wiki definition): > [@](#): > > a person’s behavior, mannerisms, interests, and appearance that are associated with gender in a particular cultural context, specifically with the categories of femininity or masculinity. This also includes gender roles. These categories rely on stereotypes about gender. Gender expression is the _external_ presentation of gender (as per local gender stereotypes) and typically aligns with one’s gender identity but not necessarily or always. Broadly speaking, transvestism can be an example of gender expression at odds with one’s gender identity. And of course **sexual orientation** is a different thing altogether, having to do with one’s attraction to other people. So Page’s gender-at-birth is female, their current gender identity is non-binary, their current gender expression is…I dunno, actually - female in film roles but I don’t know how they normally present themselves IRL - and their sexual orientation is to be attracted to women. And that’s okay, even if it’s admittedly a lot of keep track of. People are weird in all kinds of ways, and that’s okay too. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/75 "2020-12-02T21:03:13Z")
One could argue that the weirdness isn’t in Page, but in our insistence that Page has to fit into particular categories. Humans always want the world to fit into nice, neat labeled boxes, but that’s just not the way the world works. We start by making boxes labeled “male” and “female”, but then find that those don’t always work. So then, instead of discarding the boxes, we make new boxes, labeled things like “transgender”, or “intersex”, or “nonbinary”. But no matter how many boxes we make, we’re never going to be able to fit all of reality into them. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/76 "2020-12-02T21:04:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > One could argue that the weirdness isn’t in Page, but in our insistence that Page has to fit into particular categories. When I say “people are weird”, I mean _everyone_. But yes, labels can be extremely unhelpful. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/77 "2020-12-02T21:06:31Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > their current gender expression is…I dunno, actually - female in film roles but I don’t know how they normally present themselves IRL - and their sexual orientation is to be attracted to women. From a google search, Page generally seems to dress in a unisex manner (and mostly in black), wearing jeans or pants, except for awards and events in the past, when he has worn a dress. His wife Emma Portner actually presents in almost exactly the same way, wearing black outfits (maybe with a short skirt) or jeans and sweatshirts. Neither seem to dress in “feminine” clothes. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/78 "2020-12-02T21:10:13Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > Chaz Bono? > > No, Chaz is a trans **man**. Right, my bad. Although I’m not entirely sure what you’re looking for here… ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/79 "2020-12-02T21:18:24Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I mean, it has to be more than just about pronouns. I can inisist people start calling me “señor msmith537”, that that doesn’t make me Spanish. Pronouns are about gender identity, which is a social construct. Calling transmen “men” isn’t the same as saying, “transmen were born with a penis and an XY chromosome.” It’s saying their gender indentity - their place within society, how they relate to others - is as a man. That’s my understanding of things. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/80 "2020-12-02T21:28:46Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It creates some odd questions too. Like if I thought Elliot page was cute in Inception when he went by Ellen, does that make me “gay”? Physically it’s still the same person. You’re starting to see why labels and binary categories don’t work well. Or as **Chronos** says… > [@Chronos](#): > > One could argue that the weirdness isn’t in Page, but in our insistence that Page has to fit into particular categories. This was a critical realization for me that helped me understand non-binary. I remember being a little frustrated when I first encountered the term - “look, I can accept people as whatever they want to be considered, but pick one!” But after a little introspection, I realized it was my hang up, not theirs. There was no reason I had to be able to classify them as man or woman. And that lack of classification was very freeing for the person in question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940.md?page=5)