# Ellen Page is trans/nonbinary now, name is Elliot **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 1, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940 "2020-12-01T18:09:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/81 "2020-12-02T21:38:03Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Like what qualifies someone to be a transvestite? A man simply dressing up in high heels, women’s clothing and makeup seems to me to be a fairly arbitrary affectation of culture. As would be adopting traditionally feminine or masculine mannerisms. Well. yeah, a man dressing in woman’s clothing (outside of someone like an actor who is doing it for pay) is a transvestite. “Feminine gestures” not required. Heck, he could be a lumberjack ('cause that’s OK) with a full beard, a burly man’s physique, army boots, and a voice as low as a tuba but if he wears a dress, carries a purse, and wears false eyelashes for kicks … that’s a transvestite. If a man lived in a culture where “men’s attire” was dresses and “woman’s attire” was trousers then a tranvestite in that culture would be a man dressed in pants. Back in my distant youth there was also the notion that cross-dressing was a sexual fetish. Don’t know if it’s still viewed that way or not. But a transvestite, no matter how feminine the attire, still considers himself a man (I’m presuming male for transvestite - presumably, you could have it the other way around but I’m not sure you’d notice given that it’s considered acceptable these days for women to wear some pretty masculine clothing either for work or by choice). A trans woman, on the other hand, isn’t wearing woman’s attire for kicks or amusement or as a sometime thing. She might not be wearing particularly feminine clothing at all. But she wants to be a woman full time. As best my understanding is - I’m not trans myself so I may be wrong on some of this. > [@msmith537](#): > > Like what makes Elliot Page a “man”, instead of a woman who prefers sex with women, wears her hair short and doesn’t like wearing makeup or feminine clothing? Technically, Page didn’t say he was a man, he said he was non-binary and preferred he/him/his/they/them/their. There may or may not be elaboration on this down the line. So… Page is a “man” or “nonbinary” because _he said so_. “Non-binary” means, as I understand it, not “male” or “female” but “mix of traits”. So maybe that person prefers short hair and a tuxedo but still wears make-up. Or maybe prefers short hair and no make-up but wears dresses. I think there are a bunch of assumptions that people make, and given that society views are changing and this is outside of the experience of most people that’s understandable. It’s why we’re seeing speculation about Page’s marriage and career. In reality, the marriage is between the two people involved and none of our business. Page’s career is up to Page - he might be perfectly happy to continue to play Vanya on _Umbrella Academy_ as a female character. Or maybe not. Or maybe Page has a contractual obligation he’ll fulfill out of a sense of professionalism. That’s up to Page and the producers of that show. I gave the example of Eddie Izzard who describes himself as “genderfluid” - for his stand-up routine he has long worn dresses, a feminine hairstyle, heels, nail polish, make-up, etc and even dresses that way on his own time. Yet he seems to have no problems playing male roles for money, and sometimes dresses in a masculine fashion on his own time. I’d say that is someone who has been “genderfluid” or “genderqueer” or “nonbinary” for decades, but that’s strictly my take. The ultimate authority on that would be Mr. Izzard. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/82 "2020-12-02T22:06:07Z")
Wait a second. Remember how in algebra a negative number times a negative number equals a positive number? Well if a man is gay then he’s attracted to men. Then he comes out as trans and that means he wishes to identify as a woman and start the change into becoming a woman. Now assuming that after the transition into a woman they still are attracted to men, in the end arent they now a straight woman? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/83 "2020-12-02T22:10:31Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Well if a man is gay then he’s attracted to men. Then he comes out as trans and that means he wishes to identify as a woman and start the change into becoming a woman. > > Now assuming that after the transition into a woman they still are attracted to men, in the end arent they now a straight woman? You’re getting hung up on the labels. But to the extent categorization is at all useful, calling a transwoman attracted to men “straight” is certainly as reasonable an assumption as any. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/84 "2020-12-02T22:14:29Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Wait a second. Remember how in algebra a negative number times a negative number equals a positive number? Remember how in algebra there wasn’t a section on human sexuality and gender? > [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Well if a man is gay then he’s attracted to men. Then he comes out as trans and that means he wishes to identify as a woman and start the change into becoming a woman. It does not mean she wishes to physically transition. No. > [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Now assuming that after the transition into a woman they still are attracted to men, in the end arent they now a straight woman? Plausibly, if she is still exclusively attracted to men. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/85 "2020-12-02T22:15:39Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Now assuming that after the transition into a woman they still are attracted to men, in the end arent they now a straight woman? Yup. More specifically, a transgender heterosexual woman. Although the language “transition into woman” is not really accurate. They are living as the gender identity they have always been, rather than the gender assigned at birth. Being a woman - whether you were born female or not - is not something you decide. It’s something you are. To draw an analogy, if someone comes out as gay, we don’t assume he suddenly decided to turn gay. He realized he’s been gay all along and finally decided to go public about it. Adding to both of those a big old caveat that people have many different experiences and sexuality appears to be pretty fluid, especially for females. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/86 "2020-12-02T22:23:25Z")
But in the end, after they have gone thru the surgery and the hormones, they look like a woman. And you say if your gay (meaning your a man attracted to other men) is from birth, then shouldnt they still be attracted to men? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/87 "2020-12-02T22:28:42Z")
There’s a good chance they’ll still be attracted to men, yes. Sexual orientation is somewhat fluid as I said, so it’s not a sure bet. But I would say it’s likely. So in that case they would go from an assigned male attracted to men to a woman attracted to men. I would add that not everyone wants surgery and hormones. Totally depends on the person. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/88 "2020-12-02T22:29:32Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > then shouldnt they still be attracted to men? That’s what “straight” means for women. “attracted to men”. I think you might be missing some signs in your equation here. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/89 "2020-12-02T22:41:43Z")
Or you could have a person with XXY chromosomes who identifies as a male woman (except on Tuesdays), and who’s exclusively attracted to people over 6’ tall with both a penis and breasts who dress up in fursuits. What category do you use to try to describe that person? Does it even matter? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/90 "2020-12-02T22:45:46Z")
People have a really hard time when they can’t put others into boxes. Just something I’ve observed. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/91 "2020-12-02T22:45:54Z")
Double post ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/92 "2020-12-02T22:46:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > What category do you use to try to describe that person? A furry. 😽 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/93 "2020-12-02T22:47:51Z")
Need to know what they do on Tuesdays before I can answer this. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/94 "2020-12-02T22:49:44Z")
Sorry, bad link. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/95 "2020-12-02T22:55:42Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > But in the end, after they have gone thru the surgery and the hormones, they look like a woman. And you say if your gay (meaning your a man attracted to other men) is from birth, then shouldnt they still be attracted to men? I think you have that backwards. No one _should_ be attracted to anyone in particular. But if someone IS attracted to men, we tend to call them gay if they are male and straight if they are female. And… well, there’s no good word to describe the sexual orientation of non-binary people, something most non-binary people have noticed. Some of them say “I’m attracted to people who are feminine”. Some of them just say, “Hi, I’d like to introduce you to my partner, Chris”. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > People have a really hard time when they can’t put others into boxes. Just something I’ve observed. Yup. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/96 "2020-12-02T22:57:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Or you could have a person with XXY chromosomes who identifies as a male woman (except on Tuesdays), and who’s exclusively attracted to people over 6’ tall with both a penis and breasts who dress up in fursuits. What category do you use to try to describe that person? “Complicated” > [@Chronos](#): > > Does it even matter? Only if you plan to have an intimate relationship with that person. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/97 "2020-12-02T22:58:12Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Need to know what they do on Tuesdays before I can answer this. [Tacos!](https://imgur.com/gallery/WfJwfn5) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/98 "2020-12-03T01:36:15Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Some people are more comfortable with singular pronouns. Some people are trying to make things easy for their older relatives. True – someone who is nonbinary or any form of genderqueer but chooses to go by one of the s/he pronouns may be freely choosing to give a consideration to those in their circle whom they’d rather not force to use an awkward way of address. > [@Broomstick](#): > > “Complicated” Quite. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/99 "2020-12-03T01:51:47Z")
I’m starting to see the appeal of the French or Russian revolutionary practices of just addressing everybody as citizen or comrade. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/100 "2020-12-03T02:02:00Z")
Starting to? I’ve seen the appeal of that for decades. We shouldn’t have to know anything about a person in order to address em politely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940.md?page=6)