# Ellen Page is trans/nonbinary now, name is Elliot **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 1, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940 "2020-12-01T18:09:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/161 "2020-12-04T20:49:00Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > What I find is that, in _specific_ singular use, I keep wanting to say “they is” rather than “they are”; IOW it’s not the pronoun that feels wrong but the verb. > > But that’s just me. It’s not just you!! I have long considered this an ideal way to differentiate between indefinite singular “they” (with plural verb) and definite singular “they” (with singular verb), and I’m so excited that somebody else views it the same way! Let’s start a movement!!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/162 "2020-12-04T20:56:37Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > “They” is plural This is bonkers. “You” is plural–or at least it used to be, until “thou” got replaced by “you.” Language changes, and there’s a bizarre tendency among people to think that it doesn’t, or that changes to language are objectively wrong, according to some eldritch elder god’s edict or something. “They” is sometimes plural, sometimes singular. You can tell that because when a person uses the word “they”, sometimes they mean to refer to multiple people, sometimes to a single person. And “thmall” won’t happen. It’ll be “th’all.” And “all y’all” doesn’t mean “really y’all,” it means "seriously the entire group. > [@](#): > > “Are y’all coming to the shindig?” > “Bubba and I are coming for sure.” > “Okay, well, all y’all are invited.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/163 "2020-12-04T21:11:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And “all y’all” doesn’t mean “really y’all,” it means "seriously the entire group. Like the difference between _youse_ and _youse guys._ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/164 "2020-12-04T21:17:16Z")
I gotta trust you on this one–I don’t know if I’ve ever heard anyone use those in real life, but I know folks do. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/165 "2020-12-04T21:21:14Z")
I’m from the Bronx. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/166 "2020-12-04T21:23:02Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > New ABC show Big Sky has a non binary actor playing a non binary role. That say that’s a first and I tend to believe it. **Billions** has them beat. They cast non-binary actor Asia Kate Dillion to play a non-binary main character who uses they/them pronouns in season 2 back in 2017. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/167 "2020-12-05T00:19:07Z")
**Modhat** : We had a mod note to remain civil in the Café. We’ve had a poster warned in this thread. Banquet\_Bear you are acting like a jerk toward Little\_Nemo in this thread. This is an **Official Warning** for you. You will receive the email shortly. You are also instructed to stay out of this thread for now on. **Warning rescinded** , this post was before the note and warning. There was no need for moderation of your post. **I screwed up** and am undoing the warning. I am sorry. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/168 "2020-12-05T01:12:02Z")
> [@CardboardBoxx](#): > > This is exactly right. Singular they for a completely generic person is fine, (and has been used for centuries). Singular they for a specific known individual is new and is horrible. Worth mentioning that several Romance languages use a third-person pronoun as a sign of respect for the second person. (“usted”, and so forth). It threw me a hard curve when I was studying Spanish, Portuguese, French, but they seem fine with it. As I understand it’s a devolution of a medieval habit of saying “their grace”. I wouldn’t know, I violated that rule all the time because I was a mediocre student who expected the locals to cut him some slack for giving it the ol’ college try. That’s a little different from what we’re talking about, but it just demonstrates that there’s no real reason pronouns need to be rigidly fixed to our current understanding of English. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/169 "2020-12-05T01:17:39Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > As I understand it’s a devolution of a medieval habit of saying “their grace” At the risk of jumping on shit I don’t need to jump on, “devolution” isn’t really a meaningful linguistic concept. Language changes, it doesn’t devolve into primordial grunts. That said, > [@](#): > > Worth mentioning that several Romance languages use a third-person pronoun as a sign of respect for the second person. (“usted”, and so forth). This really surprised me: I’d never heard of “usted” being third person. Turns out it’s conjugated like a third-person but is only ever used as a second-person pronoun. Still, pretty cool! [Etymological history](https://spanish.stackexchange.com/questions/836/why-is-usted-grammatically-a-third-person). ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/170 "2020-12-05T04:56:25Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > I’ve had a lot of friends transition, and while I sometimes have trouble remembering everyone’s current name and such, I have never felt “this is a different person. > > I do think that the term “deadname” doesn’t help. It does seem to imply that the person before the transition does not exist anymore. It’s not that the person doesn’t exist. It’s that the _name_ doesn’t exist. It is dead. You are not supposed to use it. That’s the etiquette. There is a singular exception when informing someone who knew (or knew of) the person pre-transition, and needs to be informed of the change. But that’s only for clarity’s sake. After that, you’re supposed to use their correct name, and treat the other one as dead. Granted, people will slip up, just like they can with pronouns, and the general etiquette there is to simply remind them of the change. As long as they apologize and correct, it’s fine. Finally, people are individuals, and thus some may decide they do think of themselves as their deadname in the past, and will ask that you use it. But these are a very small exception. Unless you know the person is okay with that, you don’t use their deadname. I leave you with this video primer on the subject. (The video shows why we need a trans presence on this board to help fight ignorance on trans issues.) https://www.youtube.com/embed/0TD4bLWhYsI?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&list=UUHWINIVcwZFdVXe3U-vSCcA ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/171 "2020-12-05T04:58:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And “thmall” won’t happen. It’ll be “th’all.” And “all y’all” doesn’t mean “really y’all,” it means "seriously the entire group. IT fits better how y’all formed: it was just people saying you all really fast. If someone says “them all” really fast, you get either “th’mall” or, as I added at the bottom, “’ emall”. It seems unlikely to me that the /m/ will wind up dropped. ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/172 "2020-12-05T05:08:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “They” is sometimes plural, sometimes singular. You can tell that because when a person uses the word “they”, sometimes they mean to refer to multiple people, sometimes to a single person. I can not remember a single time I ever referred to a person as “they”. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/173 "2020-12-05T05:24:09Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > There is a trans man who does porn but did not get any surgery below the belt. Can’t recall his name. Most don’t, as the resulting penis cannot become erect without external devices. Bottom surgery in general is fraught with difficulties that can lead to loss of sexual function, and thus is not something to lightly do. Though I note that discussing this with anyone who has not been open about having or not having surgery is a huge taboo. I only bring it up because I assume a porn actor would be out on this. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/174 "2020-12-05T05:24:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s reasonable. But I feel it’s also reasonable to suggest there is the unfortunate possibility of a break up. > > My point has been that we’re talking about possibilities. What I have objected to is the certainty that a poster has been expressing in their posts when there is no basis for that certainty. And the claim that anyone who disagrees with their certainty must lack their understanding of the subject. You seem to have missed my post explaining why it wasn’t reasonable. We already knew that they were still together, despite the fact that Ellliot would have been out to his partner for a long time. We also had directly available evidence that his partner was okay with it. Plus, again, Elliot is not a trans man. We had no reason to assume he was—trans men usually insist on “he/him” pronouns, not “he/they.” It seems likely to me that, based on @Banquet_Bear’s reaction and their superior knowledge on the subject that the original post tripped over some trans etiquette. That it is generally considered somewhat offensive to assume that people will break up. I can’t say for sure. But, if it is, then I would say it’s not up to us to decide. Trans people get to define their own etiquette, just like any other minority. Anything else would be imposing the will of the majority onto the minority. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/175 "2020-12-05T05:34:19Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > “They” is sometimes plural, sometimes singular. You can tell that because when a person uses the word “they”, sometimes they mean to refer to multiple people, sometimes to a single person. > > I can not remember a single time I ever referred to a person as “they”. I would suspect you’ve used it for someone of unknown gender, as it has been standard in English to do so for centuries. The evolution is just that you now sometimes use it when someone’s gender is known, but the person is not male or female. Old usage: > Someone on the cleaning crew did their job really well! New usage: > Pat on the cleaning crew did their job really well. The following Wikipedia article will give more detail of how the former ahs existed since the 14th century: > **[Singular they](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they)** > > Singular they, along with its inflected or derivative forms, them, their, theirs, and themselves (also themself and theirself), is a gender-neutral third-person pronoun. It typically occurs with an indeterminate antecedent, in sentences such as: > This use of singular they had emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they. It has been commonly employed in everyday English ever since and has gained currency in official contexts. Singular they has been criticised since the mid... ---
**Author:** ![mistymage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mistymage/32/459_2.png) [@mistymage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mistymage)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/176 "2020-12-05T06:37:07Z")
We just received our daughter’s updated certified Birth Certificate. My husband cried as he read her new name and the details of her birth. She was our son for 17 years. It does hurt. For me it’s the idea she couldn’t/didn’t tell us for so long. I have a diverse set of friends via FB ranging from high school friends to game friends. I also had read about “third gender” people when I was in my Native American history phase (7th grade?). That she became a cutter because she was so conflicted… it hurts me so much when any of my kids are hurting. For him, well, I don’t think he’s ever known anyone who was gay/lesbian. Mostly just bi-curious folks. I’m so glad and (was) relieved both sides of our family have embraced her as she is. I kinda had hopes that we could trade make-up tips, go shopping for clothes and braid each others hair. But neither of us wear make-up, she’s no more of a clothes horse than I am and wears pretty much the same style she has for years (me, too) and… I seldom braid my hair. I think the last time she let me braid her hair she was about 5, and it was her “tail” that all 3 boys wore back then. Not a mullet but short hair and a long rat tail. This might blow some people’s minds: there are way more than just 2 sexes. [Why This Fungus Has Over 20,000 Sexes | Discover Magazine](https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/why-this-fungus-has-over-20-000-sexes) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/177 "2020-12-05T06:49:22Z")
Cis Dad of a 20 year old gender fluid non bianary child and a 16 year old trans child chiming in. I am no expert although I am up front and personal on this topic. They/Them have roots is as the “royal” they and akin to the “royal” we. It is also a way for Grandpa or anyone else using the English language to avoid having to use he or she. In other words, one does not have to acknowledge formally that “she” is now “he” (or vice versa) but use “they” instead. That said, “they” “them” feels wierd to me but Miss Manners upshot is to call people what they want to be called. As someone with a “womans” first name, masculine middle name, and self-considered a plain vanilla/mckinsey white hetero male, I’m happy to call anyone they way they want to be called. I do admit that 1) changing pronouns is challenging, and 2) referring to childhood by the birthname/gender is also challenging. It gets easier after a couple of dozen times out loud but still easy to faux pas and mess it up accidentally. Point the second. My son is gay. He was female at birth, has identified as male for about 18 months now and is attracted to men. About a week ago, I confess i told him this made my brain hurt and did not compute. End of Story. He was crushed. About 5 minutes later it dawned on me I was the biggest asshole in the universe (and went and apologized). So what if it didn’t make sense to me? It’s not about me. It’s about my son. He’s attracted to men and identifies as a man. That’s simply it. Simply irrelevant what _my_ constructs about gender and attraction are. He is male and is attracted to males. Y’all can deal with it. Third, I fear for my son. I have to confess my worst nightmare now is that we are somewhere in public. Call it a Costco. My son uses the men’s room in a stall. Some asswipe comes out with blood on his knuckles muttering “fucking trans”. And I go find my child horribly beaten by some complete shit. When my kids were little but old enough to use a restroom by themselves, papa bear would always be right outside the entrance to the womens room. More than a decade later, I do the exact same thing inside or outside the men’s room while trying not to let on to my son that I am doing this. I’m a dad, I’m a papa bear, you mess with my kid I will not stand by. That said, it feels horrible that I have to do this but I have this fear. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/178 "2020-12-05T10:00:51Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Most don’t, as the resulting penis cannot become erect without external devices. Bottom surgery in general is fraught with difficulties that can lead to loss of sexual function, and thus is not something to lightly do. I’ve observed that there is a segment of the cis community that seems obsessed with bottom surgery and/or views the crotch configuration as the most defining aspect of being trans. On the other hand, as I’ve come to know (mostly via the internet but a few in person) more and more trans people, I’ve observed that for many it’s the social acceptance of being their gender that matters the most to them. Frankly, once I learned of some of the ramifications of bottom surgery I get why many people transition in every way BUT that. > [@BigT](#): > > Though I note that discussing this with anyone who has not been open about having or not having surgery is a huge taboo. I only bring it up because I assume a porn actor would be out on this. Seriously, what’s wrong with people? The configuration of a person’s crotch is no one’s business other than their own and their intimate partner(s). And yes, Buck Angel is pretty out regarding his equipment. That sort of goes along with being a porn actor. That is his choice, to be that open about such things. The default assumption in interacting with someone trans is Mind Your Own Business when it comes to what’s under the clothing, because it’s none of your business. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/179 "2020-12-05T10:03:43Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Third, I fear for my son. I have to confess my worst nightmare now is that we are somewhere in public. Call it a Costco. My son uses the men’s room in a stall. Some asswipe comes out with blood on his knuckles muttering “fucking trans”. And I go find my child horribly beaten by some complete shit. When my kids were little but old enough to use a restroom by themselves, papa bear would always be right outside the entrance to the womens room. More than a decade later, I do the exact same thing inside or outside the men’s room while trying not to let on to my son that I am doing this. I’m a dad, I’m a papa bear, you mess with my kid I will not stand by. That said, it feels horrible that I have to do this but I have this fear. {{{Hugs}}} I agree - it is horrible that the world is such that you not only have that fear for your son, but also that it’s not an unfounded fear. I hope as we go forward these risks go down for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940/180 "2020-12-05T12:27:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > At the risk of jumping on shit I don’t need to jump on, “devolution” isn’t really a meaningful linguistic concept. Language changes, it doesn’t devolve into primordial grunts. It seems very appropriate to see the transformation of _vuestra merced_ to _usted_ as a devolution. But I’m not a prescriptivist, so I don’t mind if you define “devolution” in whatever rigid manner you like. And, yes, was that really necessary? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellen-page-is-trans-nonbinary-now-name-is-elliot/926940.md?page=10)