# Ellis Dee -- suspension lifted **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [January 3, 2006, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234 "2006-01-03T16:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/21 "2006-01-03T20:11:26Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > Staffers are actually less equal than members in a lot of ways; they’re members too, but restricted to what they can say and what they can do on their own behalf. I’ve seen many cases of mods insulting members in the Pit. Respect is a two-way street. If you want to have different rules relating to mods and regular members, then post a rule about it, but I don’t see why mods should get to insult anyone they please while we have to walk on eggshells. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/22 "2006-01-03T20:23:05Z")
I think you’re interpreting the enforcement side of the job as insult towards members, when that’s not the intent or design at all. Part of moderation is correction of bad behavior. If someone chooses to interpret that as disrespect, that’s their error. There’s also not much we can do about it except to explain what’s going on and ask people to do better. And actually throwing people out for being abusive to moderators has been with us since the early days, just not enforced so strongly of late. It’s too bad we let that slide. TubaDiva ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/23 "2006-01-03T20:41:25Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > To me, that is one of the most hateful, insulting words in the English language. And this is the crux of the problem here; not everyone shares your opinion. Should we ban the use of everyone’s personal list of the “most hateful, insulting words”? Should we take a poll? Is this word any worse than calling someone a “prick”? I think people are far too sensitive about words anyway, and outside of specific hate speech and death wishes, the Pit should be the place to vent your spleen with whatever language floats your boat. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/24 "2006-01-03T20:53:21Z")
**TubaDiva** : I do not visit the Pit; I won’t even go there to see what was said in the linked thread that is in the OP to this thread. The sum of the discussion here addresses an issue that crops up repeatedly in many ways: **Posters here want consistency in decision making by the moderators and administrators**. The crux of discontent is that the action taken appears to fail that standard. Mods and Admins have been pitted before, in the course of which they have received abusive invective at least equal to that directed by the poster who was put on temporary ban. These actions have not universally resulted in a banning, or even a warning. If the Board is going to adopt a more strict rule about the issue, that fact should be announced to members and guests in an appropriate fashion (probably with an announcement linked at the top of every forum). It should not be adopted without notice and applied to a poster who, by report, appears to have been repentant of the behaviour in question. Consistency. It really is important whenever refereeing is involved. I’d suggest that this be consideredl; I’d suggest that the action taken be reconsidered in light of this concept. You may wish to do it anyway, but at least look to see if it can really be considered “fair” in light of past allowed behaviour in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/25 "2006-01-03T21:14:21Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > And this is the crux of the problem here; not everyone shares your opinion. Should we ban the use of everyone’s personal list of the “most hateful, insulting words”? Should we take a poll? > > Is this word any worse than calling someone a “prick”? I think people are far too sensitive about words anyway, and outside of specific hate speech and death wishes, the Pit should be the place to vent your spleen with whatever language floats your boat. That is, indeed, the crux of the problem - and the problem with “hate speech” rules in general - who defines it - particularly when we are just using words. Our registration agreement says “hate speech…shall not be tolerated.” I believe this is hate speech. Others do not. I understand that and therefore don’t “report this post” when I see it. But really, knowing that many women feel similarly, is it a word we need to use? I know that if I were the admin in question and that word had been flung at me, I’d have a visceral reaction that wouldn’t have paused nearly as long as Tuba did. (This was on the short list of words that will have you walked to the door at a former employer. The only other words on the short list were one for African Americans and one for Jews. So it isn’t just me.) And yes, this is different than prick. Don’t ask me to explain why, its in the emotional connotation of the word and therefore can’t be broken down by mere logic Perhaps in the same way queer is OK, but faggot is (generally) offensive and a word I wouldn’t use outside the illustrative purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/26 "2006-01-03T22:22:18Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And yes, this is different than prick. Don’t ask me to explain why, its in the emotional connotation of the word and therefore can’t be broken down by mere logic. :rolleyes: No, it’s no different than prick, except obviously, to you. I’m sure there’s other women who feel the same way you do about the word. I’m not one of them. When someone progresses way beyond bitch, I have _zero_ problem referring to another woman _or man_ as a cunt. It’s not a word I trot out all the time, or use lightly, but when bitch just won’t do, thank goodness I still have my cunt. Hate speech, my ass. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/27 "2006-01-03T22:24:36Z")
> [@Cerri](#): > > :rolleyes: > > No, it’s no different than prick, except obviously, to you. > > I’m sure there’s other women who feel the same way you do about the word. I’m not one of them. When someone progresses way beyond bitch, I have _zero_ problem referring to another woman _or man_ as a cunt. > > It’s not a word I trot out all the time, or use lightly, but when bitch just won’t do, thank goodness I still have my cunt. > > Hate speech, my ass. Oh crap, I thought this was the Pit thread. :eek: Totally my bad, I had too many windows open. Could a mod please delete this, or at least edit out the invective? ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/28 "2006-01-03T22:30:23Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > That is, indeed, the crux of the problem - and the problem with “hate speech” rules in general - who defines it - particularly when we are just using words. Our registration agreement says “hate speech…shall not be tolerated.” I believe this is hate speech. Others do not. See, that’s the thing. I do not view the word “cunt” as an especially evil word. It is one of my favorite insults for both males and females and I consider it on the same level as twat. Until recently I had no idea that some consider it the biggest insult that you could give someone. If calling someone a cunt is viewed as a hate speech then notice should be given. I think **Ellis Dee** should be reinstated. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/29 "2006-01-03T22:39:55Z")
And that is why I haven’t made a lobbying effort to get it instated as hate speech. Because so many people are so unaware that it is hateful. But Cerri, obviously different to others than myself - or the company I formerly worked for wouldn’t have had it on their short list, but not prick. (I suspect it has something to do with the perception that men are not an oppressed class as women are - note the word perception - and that misogyny is seen as a bigger issue than misandry. Note once again, I am not saying is IS, simply its a perception thing.) However, I suspect the whole issue with the word to be regional - as I said orignally, people I have talked to from similar backgrounds as mine (i.e. middle aged currently, living in the Midwest of the U.S., female, middle class) seem to find similar levels of offense, where people who aren’t similar to me (notably Europeans) are shocked to discover anyone would take offense at the word. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/30 "2006-01-03T22:55:16Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > I think you’re interpreting the enforcement side of the job as insult towards members, when that’s not the intent or design at all. This is demonstrably not true. Look at some of **tomndebb’s** postings in the pit. In which he calls [**Kyle Raynor**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6543737&postcount=29) stupid: > [@](#): > > Kyle? Are you stupid or just play stupid on a message board? [A](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6326672&postcount=111) [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6338663&postcount=470) [full](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6341062&postcount=513) [for](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6344238&postcount=607) **[Scott](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6345800&postcount=654) [Plaid](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6345855&postcount=660)**. A gratuitous pot-shot at [**Lekatt**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6063113&postcount=188). Another one for [Scott](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5904024&postcount=83). You yourself aren’t [above](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6863075&postcount=56) a snarky reply, either. > [@TubaDiva](#): > > I hope someone explains the concept of a “joke” to you someday. I’m not picking on you or Tom for any of that - all those posts are perfectly understandable, and certainly none of them rises to the level of calling someone a “cunt.” But they’re still insults, and you can’t have it both ways. If you want to dish it out, even occasionally, you’ve got to be able to take it too. You also always mention that your positions are unpaid, and you guys deserve some slack for your mistakes. That works both ways - **Ellis** immediately acknowledged and apologized for his overreaction in that thread after hearing from **tomndebb** and **TVeblen**. Where’s his slack? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/31 "2006-01-03T23:02:35Z")
[http://www.matthewhunt.com/cunt/](http://www.matthewhunt.com/cunt/) I’m not alone. (Isn’t it interesting, someone has written a paper on darn near anything). > [@](#): > > ‘Cunt’ is perhaps the single most offensive and censored swearword in the English language: “Of all the four-letter words, CUNT is easily the most offensive” (Ruth Wajnryb, 2004). Our taboo surrounding the word ensures that it is rarely discussed, though, when it is, the superlatives come thick and fast: ‘cunt’ is “one of the most foul and insulting [words] in the English language” (Megan Goudey and Ashley Newton, 2004) and “a word so hateful it can scarcely be uttered” (Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards, 2000). Accordingly, Andrew Goldman calls ‘cunt’ “the mother of all nasty words” and “the most controversial word of all” (1999). For Tom Aldridge, it is “unarguably the most obscene [and] most forbidden word in English”, “the ultimate obscenity”, and “the nastiest four-letter word” (2001). John Doran describes it as “The most offensive word in the world”, “the worst word that anyone has ever been able to think of”, and “[the] most terrible of terrible words” (2002). ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/32 "2006-01-03T23:11:15Z")
This is getting off topic, but to me “cunt” (in US usage) isn’t analogous to “dick”, while “bitch” is, because “cunt” applies to all women, while “bitch” or “dick” only applies to members of the appropriate sex who the insulter perceives as displaying negative characteristics. That is, a bitch is a rude, or bossy or generally nasty woman, a dick is a rude or otherwise unlikable guy, but all women are cunts. They don’t need to do anything to be labeled as one, they just are by virtue of their birth. As such, there’s really no comparable word for men, and it’s more analogous to racial perjoratives that apply to all members of a racial group. And I know not everyone uses “cunt” in that sense (particularly in the UK and Ireland), but that’s how I’ve traditionally heard or seen it used. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/33 "2006-01-03T23:40:30Z")
> [@Matthew Hunt](#): > > ‘Cunt’ is perhaps the single most offensive and censored swearword in the English language: “Of all the four-letter words, CUNT is easily the most offensive” (Ruth Wajnryb, 2004). Our taboo surrounding the word ensures that it is rarely discussed, though, when it is, the superlatives come thick and fast: ‘cunt’ is “one of the most foul and insulting [words] in the English language” (Megan Goudey and Ashley Newton, 2004) and “a word so hateful it can scarcely be uttered” (Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards, 2000). Accordingly, Andrew Goldman calls ‘cunt’ “the mother of all nasty words” and “the most controversial word of all” (1999). For Tom Aldridge, it is “unarguably the most obscene [and] most forbidden word in English”, “the ultimate obscenity”, and “the nastiest four-letter word” (2001). John Doran describes it as “The most offensive word in the world”, “the worst word that anyone has ever been able to think of”, and “[the] most terrible of terrible words” (2002). Quick, somebody better tell [Inga Muscio](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1580050158/qid=1136330836/sr=8-5/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i5_xgl14/102-1948715-9896131?n=507846&s=books&v=glance). I don’t see the word cunt as being that offensive. Oh, it’s plenty worse than bitch and dick, but I can think of much worse insults than cunt. I think insults based on one’s intelligence or lack of it are worse than genital-related slurs. Actually, when one guy calls another guy a cunt, I think it’s sort of funny. Cuz like there’s nothing worse than being likened to a part of the female anatomy, OMG! Even though we lust after it! But what can I say, I burned out on getting offended in high school, now everything is comical to me. Also, word to **Enginerd** ’s post. That wasn’t enforcement, it was insulting. Or is it okay when a mod does it, because an insult by one of them comes with a built-in enforcement, so i.e. everything they do is okay? Don’t the moderator hats ever come off, isn’t that what those little notes at the start and end of some mod posts are? Again, if we’re to show one-way respect, I’d just like to know, so that I can avoid standing in the corner and thinking about what I’ve done. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/34 "2006-01-03T23:55:20Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And that is why I haven’t made a lobbying effort to get it instated as hate speech. Because so many people are so unaware that it is hateful. > > But Cerri, obviously different to others than myself - or the company I formerly worked for wouldn’t have had it on their short list, but not prick. (I suspect it has something to do with the perception that men are not an oppressed class as women are - note the word perception - and that misogyny is seen as a bigger issue than misandry. Note once again, I am not saying is IS, simply its a perception thing.) However, I suspect the whole issue with the word to be regional - as I said orignally, people I have talked to from similar backgrounds as mine (i.e. middle aged currently, living in the Midwest of the U.S., female, middle class) seem to find similar levels of offense, where people who aren’t similar to me (notably Europeans) are shocked to discover anyone would take offense at the word. Well, I’m 33 so not _that_ far off from middle aged, live in Texas now, but lived the vast majority of my life in Chicago and the NW Suburbs of the same, as well as a stint in Indiana, of the middle class, and obviously female, so I still beg to differ. I’m not saying that it doesn’t offend you or others more than anything else, but to seriously claim it’s hate speech seems to me, way over the top. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/35 "2006-01-04T00:18:54Z")
> [@Cerri](#): > > Well, I’m 33 so not _that_ far off from middle aged, live in Texas now, but lived the vast majority of my life in Chicago and the NW Suburbs of the same, as well as a stint in Indiana, of the middle class, and obviously female, so I still beg to differ. > > I’m not saying that it doesn’t offend you or others more than anything else, but to seriously claim it’s hate speech seems to me, way over the top. > > I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. As I said, that is the problem with hate speech and hate speech policies. I would be as offended if you called me a fucking cunt as if you called me a stupid nigger or a dirty kike (at least, I imagine so, I am neither Black nor Jewish and have never had those words flung at me). You may not mean to offend me in the same manner, but it would be done. And it isn’t over the top - it is defined as hate speech by several colleges and universities with hate speech policies. In other words, the word you have zero problem with can be terribly offensive to other people, so unless your intent is to offend, you shouldn’t use it. (I hate this debate, it always makes me type words I don’t like seeing, much less using. I think I’ll go take a shower now.) ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/36 "2006-01-04T00:49:26Z")
Without digging too deep into things, I have to agree with others who’ve said that this is a _total_ over-reaction. I think this is vindictiveness not board management. Where do I get my “Free Ellis Dee” shirts? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/37 "2006-01-04T01:07:54Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Where do I get my “Free Ellis Dee” shirts? Um… They’re $9.95 @ [www.freethefuckerinquestion.com](http://www.freethefuckerinquestion.com) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/38 "2006-01-04T01:28:26Z")
This isn’t just upsetting, it is _bizarre_. The whole thing boggles the mind. If the board keeps moving in this direction, I’ll certainly have questions as to why I’m moving along with it. I haven’t seen any viable arguments as to why mods should be exempted from pitting, and I can’t recall the precedent. Can anyone cite a previous ban for this reason? Seriously, I’m curious. ---
**Author:** ![AndyPolley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@AndyPolley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyPolley)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/39 "2006-01-04T01:52:46Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Where do I get my “Free Ellis Dee” shirts? Sign me up. This is a situation where Ellis Dee apologized for his own behavior as soon as it was pointed out to him that he was over-reacting. If his tone was too harsh (I kind of think it was) I think a warning would have sufficed. For what it’s worth, I seriously disagree with this suspension. ---
**Author:** ![Phedre\_no\_Delaunay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/839c29/32.png) [@Phedre\_no\_Delaunay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phedre_no_Delaunay)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/40 "2006-01-04T02:18:30Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > Um… > > They’re $9.95 > @ [www.freethefuckerinquestion.com](http://www.freethefuckerinquestion.com) Now you’re going to be banned for advertising. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234.md?page=3)