# Ellis Dee -- suspension lifted **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [January 3, 2006, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234 "2006-01-03T16:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/101 "2006-01-05T21:11:54Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Beyond that, though, I’m leery of imposing too many more restrictions on how mods and posters talk to/about each other, and for purely selfish reasons: I think it will make being a mod sort of suck. I want to be able to tease and poke at people (especially idiots) and I don’t want people to be afraid to tease and poke at me. Amen! Incidentally, people are thrown out of Disney for screaming obscenities period, not just because it’s aimed at staffers. Should be same same here. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/102 "2006-01-05T21:30:19Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > I think this is a very good point, and one which needs to be considered before making any absolute rules regarding treatment of moderators. I for one have no interest in being a moderator if it effectively removes my ability to be a poster. I personally don’t care about bad words being directed at me. > > That said, some mods and admins do. There have always been limits to how much abuse you could heap on a mod or admin before there were consequences, even in the Pit. I don’t think that’s been a bad thing. Really, I’d like to see us stay away from the extremes in both directions. Geez, **Giraffe** , I thought we were suppose to suck up to the Mods, not the Mods suck up to the Posters. 😉 I really do like what you just posted. Maybe each Mod should explain whether they want to be treated a poster with duties or an Authoritarian Official of the Board or some grey area in between. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/103 "2006-01-05T21:58:18Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Geez, **Giraffe** , I thought we were suppose to suck up to the Mods, not the Mods suck up to the Posters. 😉 I still hate you all, don’t worry. Your anguish is like sweet nectar to me. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/104 "2006-01-05T21:59:58Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > I still hate you all, don’t worry. Your anguish is like sweet nectar to me. That’s better, thank you. Now all is right with the world again. Jim ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/105 "2006-01-05T22:07:24Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > We pay now. Your decisions are fiduciary; i.e., you depend on public confidence for the value of your site. When I go to a private home, invited for entertainment, I expect to follow whatever rules the host lays down, no matter how stupid I may find them. After all, I can just leave if I don’t like it. But when I go to a public place, where I’ve paid for admission, I don’t expect to be ejected when a staffer has been rude to me and I’ve responded in kind — at least not without a refund. Tuba is still the parochial matron of the site, protecting the staff from any encroachment by the riff-raff known as “members”. It is a role she has long held. What you are sorely lacking now is an advocate for the membership — a voice that makes your site worth the price of admission. You might think it’s a hassle to put up with us, but it’s not always a piece of cake dealing with you either. You (the corporate you) seem to be resting on your laurels that the site is so good that people will come and pay and suffer every manner of abuse just for the privilege of participating. And true, some will. But when that happens, you’ll lose the very diversity of personalities that has always made this site attractive. All you will have left are doormats that don’t even realize that their payment entitles them to decent treatment. Maybe that’s what you want. Who knows. Your **payment** doesn’t entitle you to diddly squat. If you don’t like what you get for your money, don’t re-up your membership. Even a Liberal should be able to understand THAT basic economic and social fact. :rolleyes: The issue, if any, is whether or not the limits on behaviour will be “acceptable” to enough members to make implementing them something other than a losing proposition. If a new approach results in 50% of the membership finding somewhere else to spend their time (and dollars), then the approach will have failed its goal. But you as a paying member aren’t entitled to anything beyond what you were promised at in the contract, and buddy, that contract basically says you can be tossed out of here for anything they want. It’s their site, you pay to play, but you don’t have a **right** to play how you want to play, whether that seems _fair_ to you or not. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/106 "2006-01-05T22:40:38Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Your **payment** doesn’t entitle you to diddly squat. If you don’t like what you get for your money, don’t re-up your membership. Even a Liberal should be able to understand THAT basic economic and social fact. Surely the most amusing (and mis-aimed) insult ever! 😃 My payment entitles me to all the rights and privileges of membership, whatever they might be, extended from the ownership authority of the Chicago Reader. I can choose whether to re-up, that’s fine. But I cannot choose whether to be banned or suspended just because a mod has misunderstood me or made up a new rule. > [@](#): > > But you as a paying member aren’t entitled to anything beyond what you were promised at in the contract, and buddy, that contract basically says you can be tossed out of here for anything they want. It’s their site, you pay to play, but you don’t have a **right** to play how you want to play, whether that seems _fair_ to you or not. Rights are an attribute of property ownership. When I posted for free, I had no rights — only privileges extended by the Chicago Reader. Now, I buy rights. Sure, I have to behave reasonably and within the guidelines, and no one is suggesting that it be otherwise. But when you take people’s money and give them nothing in return but grief as you laugh your way to the bank, that’s called a “scam”. I don’t know law, but it seems to me that a “contract” with consideration for only one party should be unenforceable. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/107 "2006-01-06T02:31:08Z")
> [@Xploder](#): > > Thanks for posting this. I thought that was how the board always ran. As a matter of fact, I don’t recall anyone else ever getting bitched out for cussing at a mod, at least not to the point of getting suspended. For that matter, I don’t really recall anyone getting a warning but I probably missed it if it is, in fact, there. I haven’t had time to search–insane work schedule this week–but I do remember posters being warned and even banned for cussing out mods in direct response to official actions. (Of course this might also be the first symptom of creeping dementia.) There was a lot of razzin’ and jazzin’ in both directions but outright “fuck you for doing X” wasn’t kosher. Of course that was before pay-to-post and things are different, as they \*should be[/]. I’d say things are better, even though the growing pains can be a drag. I agree with **Giraffe** (oh _God_, that’s scary) that the fewer the rules the better. In the first place, zillions of rules sap the fun right out of the place for everybody. Who wants to memorize _The Code of Federal Regulations_ just to post on a message board? Second, we probably can’t completely go back to the free-wheeling past but too much bureaucracy inhibits a lot of innocent fun. Maybe one problem is that any concerns about the board go in The Pit, the only place where flaming, ranting and creative invective are allowed. I think that implies an invitation to flame at will. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/108 "2006-01-06T03:03:06Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Surely the most amusing (and mis-aimed) insult ever! 😃 > > My payment entitles me to all the rights and privileges of membership, whatever they might be, extended from the ownership authority of the Chicago Reader. I can choose whether to re-up, that’s fine. But I cannot choose whether to be banned or suspended just because a mod has misunderstood me or made up a new rule. > > Rights are an attribute of property ownership. When I posted for free, I had no rights — only privileges extended by the Chicago Reader. Now, I buy rights. > > Sure, I have to behave reasonably and within the guidelines, and no one is suggesting that it be otherwise. But when you take people’s money and give them nothing in return but grief as you laugh your way to the bank, that’s called a “scam”. I don’t know law, but it seems to me that a “contract” with consideration for only one party should be unenforceable. Read the contract, learn some contract law, then come back and discuss the issue intelligently. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/109 "2006-01-06T03:04:12Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > I haven’t had time to search–insane work schedule this week–but I do remember posters being warned and even banned for cussing out mods in direct response to official actions. (Of course this might also be the first symptom of creeping dementia.) There was a lot of razzin’ and jazzin’ in both directions but outright “fuck you for doing X” wasn’t kosher. > > Of course that was before pay-to-post and things are different, as they \*should be[/]. I’d say things are better, even though the growing pains can be a drag. > > I agree with **Giraffe** (oh _God_, that’s scary) that the fewer the rules the better. In the first place, zillions of rules sap the fun right out of the place for everybody. Who wants to memorize _The Code of Federal Regulations_ just to post on a message board? Second, we probably can’t completely go back to the free-wheeling past but too much bureaucracy inhibits a lot of innocent fun. > > Maybe one problem is that any concerns about the board go in The Pit, the only place where flaming, ranting and creative invective are allowed. I think that implies an invitation to flame at will. Like I said, I most likely missed anyone being warned or banned for cussing out a mod. It wouldn’t be the first thing I ever missed here. Maybe there should be a forum for nothing BUT concerns about the board. Seems to me that would cut down on the problem quite a bit. There’s already rules in place about no flaming outside the pit so it’d be covered. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/110 "2006-01-06T06:29:50Z")
I’m not senile (though demented is certainly a possibility and always has been) and I definitely remember throwing people out for being abusive of staff. Ed used to refer to it as such: “Rule No. 2: Don’t piss off the moderators.” Right behind Rule No. 1. “Don’t be a jerk.” We’ve been much more tolerant in recent years, especially since we ask for your subscriber dollars, but as I seem to say a lot lately, there are limits to everything. I’m surprised people have forgotten – Manny and Alphagene used to throw 'em out wholesale, to give but two blazing examples – but we also have a lot of people that weren’t here for any of this old drama, so I’m assuming that accounts for the lack of memory. TubaDiva Looking forward to the day I can hide my own Easter eggs, read one book, and make new friends every day ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/111 "2006-01-06T07:28:03Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > I’m surprised people have forgotten – Manny and Alphagene used to throw 'em out wholesale, to give but two blazing examples – but we also have a lot of people that weren’t here for any of this old drama, so I’m assuming that accounts for the lack of memory. True, but those were with consistently abusive trolls. Not with typically moderate and immediately apologetic members how don’t have a history of troublemaking. To compare the two is asinine. ---
**Author:** ![Feydeau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df788c/32.png) [@Feydeau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feydeau)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/112 "2006-01-06T09:40:47Z")
> [@Xploder](#): > > Maybe there should be a forum for nothing BUT concerns about the board. Seems to me that would cut down on the problem quite a bit. There’s already rules in place about no flaming outside the pit so it’d be covered. I have never understood why complaints About This Message Board have never gone, oh I don’t know, in the forum entitled **About This Message Board**. Makes sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/113 "2006-01-06T10:02:48Z")
Short version: We got tired of reading “fuck” in ATMB. 🙂 Now, really, here’s how we split it up: If it’s a question about how something works or how to do something or why or why not, it goes here. If it’s a useful suggestion, it goes here. If it’s a gripe, a complaint, a rant, a flame, it’s in the Pit. We do expect a lowered level of invective in ATMB and it’s much more common in the Pit, so it fits there. TubaDiva ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/114 "2006-01-06T10:07:39Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Read the contract, learn some contract law, then come back and discuss the issue intelligently. The only thing I said about contracts is that it seems to me that a contract that does not provide consideration for both parties ought to be unenforceable. Is that something you care to address? Or did you just come in here to huff and puff and call people stupid? ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2006, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/115 "2006-01-06T12:26:48Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > I’m not senile (though demented is certainly a possibility and always has been) and I definitely remember throwing people out for being abusive of staff. > > Ed used to refer to it as such: “Rule No. 2: Don’t piss off the moderators.” Right behind Rule No. 1. “Don’t be a jerk.” > > We’ve been much more tolerant in recent years, especially since we ask for your subscriber dollars, but as I seem to say a lot lately, there are limits to everything. > > I’m surprised people have forgotten – Manny and Alphagene used to throw 'em out wholesale, to give but two blazing examples – but we also have a lot of people that weren’t here for any of this old drama, so I’m assuming that accounts for the lack of memory. > > TubaDiva > Looking forward to the day I can hide my own Easter eggs, read one book, and make new friends every day As has already been said, I remember it for obviously abusive trolls but that’s pretty much it. ---
**Author:** ![Floyd\_Remora](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecccb3/32.png) [@Floyd\_Remora](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floyd_Remora)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/116 "2006-01-07T01:02:40Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > We’ve been much more tolerant in recent years, especially since we ask for your subscriber dollars, but as I seem to say a lot lately, there are limits to everything. > > I’m surprised people have forgotten – Manny and Alphagene used to throw 'em out wholesale, to give but two blazing examples – but we also have a lot of people that weren’t here for any of this old drama, so I’m assuming that accounts for the lack of memory. Manhattan dished out his share of insults but neither did he did bitch and whine about the abuse he got in return. And posters got banned when abusive language was a long-term pattern, not just because they happened to call a moderator a bad word in one instance. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/117 "2006-01-07T17:12:21Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Rights are an attribute of property ownership. When I posted for free, I had no rights — only privileges extended by the Chicago Reader. Now, I buy rights. > > Sure, I have to behave reasonably and within the guidelines, and no one is suggesting that it be otherwise. But when you take people’s money and give them nothing in return but grief as you laugh your way to the bank, that’s called a “scam”. I don’t know law, but it seems to me that a “contract” with consideration for only one party should be unenforceable. > [@Liberal](#): > > The only thing I said about contracts is that it seems to me that a contract that does not provide consideration for both parties ought to be unenforceable. Is that something you care to address? Or did you just come in here to huff and puff and call people stupid? Mistakes in your assumptions: 1. You aren’t buying “property” by paying for membership. A contract isn’t “property;” it’s an agreement between parties, each of whom/which agrees to do or not do something they aren’t required to do/not do. So no, you aren’t buying “rights.” 2. Your money buys you one thing at this message board: the right to post messages (and search, etc.) after 30 days of “guest” membership. The parties with whom you are contracting don’t have to let you do that, so the fact they let you do that after payment is their “consideration.” A very loose analogy would be paying for the right to bowl at a bowling alley; the alley could toss you out for any reason they chose. 3. This board hardly “gives you nothing but grief as [they] laugh [their] way to the bank.” But even if they did give you grief, and lots of it, so what? That isn’t a “scam,” although it may be a bad retailing practice. Now, if they took your money, and then you couldn’t post at all, that’s a different issue, for which, by the way, **your** remedy would be the return of your $15. 4. The only thing you said in either post that was accurate is “I don’t know law.” I will point out I never called you stupid, just uneducated on the subject and incorrect, a practice I will continue when the target offers itself as readily as you did. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/118 "2006-01-07T18:46:52Z")
Regarding “rights” and “privileges” as a result of paying or not paying, there’s another point which I didn’t see here during a cursory scan through the thread. In a nightclub, or at Disneyland, as someone pointed out, if you act obnoxiously you’ll be thrown out without having your ticket price or cover charge refunded. And that’s as it should be, because by throwing obnoxious people out, the management is protecting the rights of the other customers. I’ve seen some unmoderated boards, and it’s always made me say to myself, “thank god we have moderators here!” ---
**Author:** ![Ty\_Cobb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ty\_Cobb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ty_Cobb)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/119 "2006-01-10T19:52:57Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > We have suspended Ellis Dee for one month, beginning today. > …Ellis Dee – suspension lifted 30 days or just a few. Makes you wonder. ---
**Author:** ![Ty\_Cobb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ty\_Cobb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ty_Cobb)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234/120 "2006-01-10T19:54:41Z")
By you, of course, I mean me. And by wonder I mean contemplate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ellis-dee-suspension-lifted/338234.md?page=5)