# Elucidator, Lobohan, thanks a bunch. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 2, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938 "2009-03-02T00:20:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/101 "2009-03-03T02:34:19Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Hypocrisy . . . really has no bearing on whether those things are right or wrong themselves. This is absolutely correct. But you fail to see one possible conclusion one can draw from hypocrisy: that the hypocrite doesn’t really care about the rightness or wrongness of the action, but just doesn’t like the object of criticism and wants to attack him with whatever ammunition seems available. Consider the case of China. The United States criticizes China for human rights violations, and China call us hypocrites. The hypocrisy doesn’t make us wrong about the criticism–in point of fact, we are right, even if we are hypocrites. But it does cast doubt about whether we really care about, say, the religious freedom of cults, or whether we just want to bang a potential rival over the head with things we hope others will perceive as wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/102 "2009-03-03T03:11:48Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > This is absolutely correct. But you fail to see one possible conclusion one can draw from hypocrisy: that the hypocrite doesn’t really care about the rightness or wrongness of the action, but just doesn’t like the object of criticism and wants to attack him with whatever ammunition seems available. No. I do see that possible conclusion. > [@](#): > > Consider the case of China. The United States criticizes China for human rights violations, and China call us hypocrites. The hypocrisy doesn’t make us wrong about the criticism–in point of fact, we are right, even if we are hypocrites. But it does cast doubt about whether we really care about, say, the religious freedom of cults, or whether we just want to bang a potential rival over the head with things we hope others will perceive as wrong. That’s an excellent example. In this case, I don’t think that China’s cries of hypocrisy are particularly meaningful, as their human rights violations appear to be widespread, and systematic, whereas the US failings are relatively sporadic and exceptional by nature, at least IMO. Similarly a habitual liar may defend himself to a relatively honest man who is sick of his lying by calling him a hypocrite and pointing out the rare instance where the relatively honest man dissembled. I don’t beleive that I habitually participate in pile ons, nor do I habitually insult people who are not present though it’s true that I’ve done both at some point. So, I don’t think my hypocrisy particularly validates any objection. The possible conclusion that you may be missing is that cries of hypocrisy are often simply the attempt at redirection by a party who otherwise cannot defend their position. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/103 "2009-03-03T03:17:30Z")
“Hypocrisy is the pretty compliment vice pays to virtue.” (Attribution varies, usually Rochefoucauld) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/104 "2009-03-03T03:22:00Z")
The point of the China example was that the hypocrisy undermines the message, even when the message is right. So when you say that “[h]ypocrisy isn’t such a big deal for me,” you concede that you don’t really care about your message. Your hypocrisy invites us to conclude that you chose to pit **elucidator** and **Lobohan** not because you care about what they did, but because you just don’t like them (which is quite similar to the way the US picks on China instead of Saudi Arabia). ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/105 "2009-03-03T03:41:45Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The point of the China example was that the hypocrisy undermines the message, even when the message is right. So when you say that “[h]ypocrisy isn’t such a big deal for me,” you concede that you don’t really care about your message. No. That is not a fair interpretation. I do care about the message. I simply recognize that I am imperfect. I think lying is bad, but I have lied. I still don’t like habitual liars and I still think it’s a generally bad thing. So no, you’re conclusion does not follow, at all. > [@](#): > > Your hypocrisy invites us to conclude that you chose to pit **elucidator** and **Lobohan** not because you care about what they did, but because you just don’t like them (which is quite similar to the way the US picks on China instead of Saudi Arabia). I don’t know **Lobohan**. He never really ever said anything that made an impression on me. I didn’t know he existed until I read his comment. And, though we have argued, I actually like **elucidator** and have said so several times. Also, I did come to **Lissener’s** aid in the thread I linked to and I don’t like him very much, so I don’t think your thesis holds water. But again, the motivations are hardly germaine. It’s either good form and ok to engage in unprovoked attacks against non-participating posters, or it’s bad form and not ok. My stance is that it’s not cool. The fact that at some point I did it myself, doesn’t make it cool. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/106 "2009-03-03T04:14:52Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I do care about the message. I simply recognize that I am imperfect. I think lying is bad, but I have lied. I still don’t like habitual liars and I still think it’s a generally bad thing. Ok, so you do actually care about hypocrisy insofar as it affects whether people take your message seriously. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim to not care about your hypocrisy and simultaneously maintain that you care about people disregarding your message as mere mud slinging. Also, you seem to suggest in your repeated use of examples involving habitual behavior that while you merely slipped once or twice, elucidator and Lobohan do this habitually. Is that your intention? If not, what purpose does the habitual aspect serve in your argument? > [@Scylla](#): > > But again, the motivations are hardly germaine. They are hardly germane to whether the behavior is right or wrong. They are entirely germane to whether to take you seriously in this thread. If a follower of Bill Clinton pits George Bush, rejecting Bush for lustily leering at women, you wouldn’t take that poster very seriously even though his abject hypocrisy has nothing to do with the rightness of his argument. And the reason you wouldn’t is not because you don’t think he is sincere, or correct, but because you don’t believe he actually cares about the lusty leering. Similarly, I think the content of what they said ruffled your feathers a bit. You don’t actually care that they posted about you even though you weren’t in the thread. I suspect, in part from your hypocrisy, that you pitted them because of the content. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/107 "2009-03-03T04:25:28Z")
Re-reading that, I don’t think it makes very much sense. I think I’ve got a point somewhere in there, but it ain’t coming through. Forgive me for posting while sleepy. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/108 "2009-03-03T04:28:13Z")
Once, there was a **Scylla**. Stubborn as a cast-iron mule. Slippery as a three-card monte dealer, tenacious as a bulldog. No, the bulldog is a palsied chihuahua in comparison. Anti-tank rounds fired at his adamantine opinions whimpered before impact. I’m guessing it was daughters. Daughters are the sappers of the Fortress on Manly Dignity. They undermine the walls, the turrets, the redoubts. Rearrange the stones for Barbie’s cottages, dismantle the trebuchet for a swing set, confiscate the flagons made from enemy’s skulls, clean thoroughly, box and relegate to some distant attic. Once there was a **Scylla** , now…just a Daddy. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/109 "2009-03-03T04:30:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Once there was a **Scylla** , now…just a Daddy. That’s why I like you. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/110 "2009-03-03T04:47:01Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I hadn’t posted in that thread, or even looked at it until a vanity search revealed those. Kinda reminds me of the times when **Esprix** and **Scylla** used to subtly work one another’s names into posts in order to get the other one to read a boring thread. Damn, that was what? eight years ago? More? Before the Winter of Our Missed Content. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/111 "2009-03-03T06:52:20Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I hadn’t posted in that thread, or even looked at it **until a vanity search** revealed those. This speaks volumes. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/112 "2009-03-03T06:58:22Z")
> [@BJMoose](#): > > … > > Word is ' **luci** prefers his [del]laddies[/del] ladies foxey, not coyotey. True, I am no vixen, but I am a bit of a bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/113 "2009-03-03T07:43:51Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I don’t know **Lobohan**. He never really ever said anything that made an impression on me. I didn’t know he existed until I read his comment. And, though we have argued, I actually like **elucidator** and have said so several times. Hello. I’m called Lobohan. I find you narcissistic and blowhardy with just the right tint of arrogant gravitas to mostly pull it off. Nice to meet you. Might I suggest if I’ve wounded you to the core that you can purchase a pair of [trucknutz](http://www.trucknutz.com/)and wear them around your neck as a talisman from which to draw the strength to brave the hurt. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/114 "2009-03-03T13:34:09Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > No worries. I just thought vanity searching was something everyone did. I thought name-dropping in a thread was done to attract the poster who might be able to answer the question. Now there’s a possibility I hadn’t thought of. I have seen an occasional “Paging so-and-so” remark in a thread. Course, no one ever solicits _my_ opinion. ☹ Just for giggles, yesterday I did a “vanity search” (limiting it to the past month so as not to annoy the hamsters). Got just six threads, all of which I had participated in. So there seems little point in using the technique myself. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/115 "2009-03-03T13:42:23Z")
> [@Wile\_E](#): > > True, I am no vixen, but I am a bit of a bitch. :eek: (By the way: it did not occur to me until well after I hit “submit” that “coyotey” could imply “dogish”. Sorry about that.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/116 "2009-03-04T03:30:10Z")
This is bizarre. **Scylla** is an occasionally articulate and entertaining and wrong, but mostly dull and wrongheaded and still wrong, person of ideas (or at least, _an_ idea), who is, as a practical man, willing to defend his most virulent detractors when they are attacked for defending (on liberal grounds) his most virulent and wrongheaded bigotries. This sometimes confuses people into thinking that fair-mindedness is in play, when really it’s just a spring-loaded trap baited with a whiff of egalitarianism, set for someone who _likes_ that sort of thing, waiting to be sprung. **Scylla** , if there aren’t already enough posters here to have either infuriated or inflated your ego (I can’t tell which you prefer), at least quit pitting those who still are willing to try – otherwise even those who _don’t_ know you will get the hint that it’s not a prize worth striving for. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/117 "2009-04-18T03:08:15Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Kinda reminds me of the times when **Esprix** and **Scylla** used to subtly work one another’s names into posts in order to get the other one to read a boring thread. Damn, that was what? eight years ago? More? Before the Winter of Our Missed Content. Ah, the good old days… 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/118 "2009-04-18T21:46:34Z")
Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/119 "2009-04-18T22:43:34Z")
> [@Esprix](#): > > Ah, the good old days… 😉 > > Esprix ESPRIX!!! I was LOOKING for you the other day, you rat! Where the hell you hangin’??? Yay…Esprix… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938/120 "2009-04-19T02:23:25Z")
**Esprix** ’s back? HOT DAMN!!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elucidator-lobohan-thanks-a-bunch/487938.md?page=7)