# ElvisL1ves; Liar, or stupid? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 11, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569 "2008-08-11T03:52:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/61 "2008-08-17T21:53:07Z")
On reflection, I don’t know what “the Jdeh story” refers to. I assumed Elvis was referring to a terrorist who had some Montreal- or Canada- connection but I can’t find details in this or the original thread, and none of the 19 9/11 hijackers went by that name, as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/62 "2008-08-17T22:01:03Z")
Secondly, “tolerance of terrorists”? What the fuck ever. It’s not like we identified terrorists and said, well, they haven’t blown up anything yet, just let them be. If you have any info on terrorists within our borders that the Canadian government **knows about** and is doing nothing towards catching them, please, by all means, let us know. Tolerance of terrorists. I doubt there’s a single country in the world that doesn’t have a terrorist or two within its borders. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/63 "2008-08-17T22:04:20Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] On reflection, I don’t know what “the Jdeh story” refers to. I assumed Elvis was referring to a terrorist who had some Montreal- or Canada- connection but I can’t find details in this or the original thread, and none of the 19 9/11 hijackers went by that name, as far as I can tell. [/QUOTE] I think he was involved in the Snuh bombings of Febtober the 34th. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2008, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/64 "2008-08-17T22:20:18Z")
I believe both sides are talking past each other. \*\* Elvis’s\*\* original statement is obviously wrong, but he appears to be arguing that there are Al Queda operatives in Montreal/terrorists. Of course everyone else concedes this point, though they don’t make the idiotic leap that the terrorists are acceptable to Canada. but as long as **Elvis** continues to ignore the obvious mistatement he made (that the 9-11 terrorists came from/had significant ties to Montreal, other than the non significant one of ‘other members of that terrorist organization were there’, this thread will continue. he will continue to ignore the specific of ‘9-11 terrorists’ that he originally posted and focus instead on the non-debated data point of ‘terrorists in Montreal’. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/65 "2008-08-17T22:37:09Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] I already did, indirectly, in the Jdeh story [/QUOTE] Jdeh was not one of the 9/11 terrorists. The story is not relevant. Let me provide you with the claim you made, which I will repeat five times, since you are having a remarkable amount of difficulty admitting to yourself that you made it: [QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Considering that the 9/11 perps themselves were safely based in Montreal, why would they want to attack it? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Considering that the 9/11 perps themselves were safely based in Montreal, why would they want to attack it? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Considering that the 9/11 perps themselves were safely based in Montreal, why would they want to attack it? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Considering that the 9/11 perps themselves were safely based in Montreal, why would they want to attack it? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Considering that the 9/11 perps themselves were safely based in Montreal, why would they want to attack it? [/QUOTE] Can you or can you not provide evidence this is true? > [@](#): > > … which if you can force yourselves to recall was the topic… This is, in fact, a lie. The topic was NEVER Canadian attitudes towards terrorism, as everyone knows, including yourself. The thread you originally shat in was “What would your reaction be in terrorists attacked Montreal?” This thread concerns, specifically, your claim that **the 9/11 terrorists were based in Montreal**. Never in the course of the two threads has the topic been Canadian attitudes or actions towards terrorism; that was brought up only by you, when caught in the original lie. You have three choices: 1. Provide evidence (evidence that even the 9/11 commission seemed to lack) that the 9/11 terrorists were based in Montreal, as per your claim. 2. Retract your claim. 3. Do neither, proving yourself a liar. The choice is yours. Jesus, man, _stop lying_. You’re making yourself look like a fool. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/66 "2008-08-17T22:56:13Z")
[QUOTE=wring] I believe both sides are talking past each other. [/QUOTE] I disagree. We’re talking to the Elvis that said the 9/11 “perps” were based in Montreal. The Elvis that has posted to this thread is determinedly pretending that the other Elvis doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/67 "2008-08-17T23:05:09Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] I already did, indirectly, in the Jdeh story that is being so indignantly dismissed by those of you who’d rather pull your Hudson’s Bay blankets up over your heads to make the rest of the world just go away. [/QUOTE] Your general point is one that can be used in the GD thread which led to this thread. **This** thread is about a **specific statement** you made. You know this, we all fucking know it. Now just swallow the pride and retract the obviously incorrect statement and stop being a fucking willful prick about it. You’re making a show of yourself here. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/68 "2008-08-17T23:33:21Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] I disagree. We’re talking to the Elvis that said the 9/11 “perps” were based in Montreal. The Elvis that has posted to this thread is determinedly pretending that the other Elvis doesn’t exist. [/QUOTE] you keep making your point,he ignores it and keeps making his (irrelevant) point, just like I said. very definition imho of 'taking past each other ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2008, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/69 "2008-08-17T23:35:16Z")
[QUOTE=yojimbo] **This** thread is about a **specific statement** you made. You know this, we all fucking know it. Now just swallow the pride and retract the obviously incorrect statement and stop being a fucking willful prick about it. . [/QUOTE] yep ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/70 "2008-08-18T00:07:00Z")
[QUOTE=wring] you keep making your point,he ignores it and keeps making his (irrelevant) point, just like I said. very definition imho of 'taking past each other [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t call that ‘talking past each other’. I would define ‘talking past each other’ as two reasonable people trying to converse while failing to appreciate the point the other person is making. This is more like one person who is unable to support their previous assertion\*, unable to admit they are wrong, and therefore unable to address the main point of the thread, and yet sadly, unable to distract their detractors with smoke screens, red herrings and poutine. The part that I like the best is where each red herring he raises is addressed in a reasonable manner\*\*, and then the main point is returned to\*\*\*, and he pretends it doesn’t exist. That and the hysterical attempts at Canadian slurs. It’s kind of like watching South Park, but without the wit. - “Considering that the 9/11 perps themselves were safely based in Montreal, why would they want to attack it?” \*\*For instance, 1)There were bad guys in Montreal, 2) Canada and other democracies have a difficult problem of balancing an open society with security. \*\*\*“Considering that the 9/11 perps themselves were safely based in Montreal, why would they want to attack it?” - This statement has neither been supported, nor retracted. This is the point of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/71 "2008-08-18T00:19:23Z")
don’t like the phrase? fine. still ain’t going to change his actions. he’ll continue w/his game. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/72 "2008-08-18T00:33:19Z")
This is interesting. Apparently, Newt Gingrich made the same mistake, claiming that the 9/11 hijackers were Montreal-based. Then Mr. Gingrich owned up to his error, and apologized to the Canadian people through their ambassador to the United States. From [here](http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/04/21/gingrich-mckenna050421.html): > [@](#): > > Outspoken American conservative Newt Gingrich has apologized for saying this week [Thursday April 21, 2005] that some of the Sept. 11 hijackers entered the United States from Canada… > > He told the [Canadian] ambassador he “deeply regrets” what has become a “widespread inaccuracy”… > > None of the 19 hijackers entered the U.S. from either Canada or Mexico, information confirmed by former U.S. attorney general John Ashcroft and the 9/11 Commission investigating the attacks wrote [Canadian ambassador] McKenna in his letter to Gingrich. So no less an important American than Newt Gingrich has mistakenly believed that the 9/11 hijackers came from Canada. But at least Gingrich admitted his error. Interesting, eh? ---
**Author:** ![HongKongFooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c4cdca/32.png) [@HongKongFooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HongKongFooey)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/73 "2008-08-18T00:43:54Z")
C’mon guys! We all know the 9/11 terrorists were safely ensconced in New England the entire time they were planning the attacks. Fattening themselves up on lobster rolls and cheap beer at Fenway they were! ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/74 "2008-08-18T00:47:23Z")
[QUOTE=Attack from the 3rd dimension] The part that I like the best is where each red herring he raises is addressed in a reasonable manner\*\*, and then the main point is returned to\*\*\*, and he pretends it doesn’t exist. That and the hysterical attempts at Canadian slurs. It’s kind of like watching South Park, but without the wit. [/QUOTE] Yes, it’s all rather bizarre. Moreover, even if we were to discuss the topic which **Elvis** persists in pretending is under consideration, he’s still completely full of shit. As you point out, balancing a free, open society with policing of extremists of this sort poses challenges. For those who value liberty, the fact that various bad people who have not yet done anything illegal manage to live freely is barely worth mentioning. We might also note that Canadian officials got stung pretty badly for sharing information with American officials in the Maher Arar affair, and the fallout from that has made many Canadians highly skeptical of certain types of claims from Americans. If “soft on terror” simply means we’re opposed to shipping people who have been seen in the vicinity of other people who may or may not be associated with al Qaeda off to Syria to be tortured, well then, yes you’re damned right we’re soft on terror. Second, even if we were to grant for the sake of discussion that Canada really is “soft on terror” in some substantive sense, it’s simply stupid to suggest that Montreal wouldn’t be a target. Is the idea supposed to be that the terrorists don’t want to frighten the Canadian populace, who might then sign over their freedoms in favour of increased police powers that would make operation in Canada more difficult? If there was anything whatsoever to that, then there would be no terror attacks anywhere, as they all quite predictably have this result. The truth is, as noted somewhere upthread, terrorists are perfectly happy to attack the locations they operate from - see London and Madrid. And finally, it was an IMHO poll asking how people would respond to Montreal being attacked. That is, the topic of the thread was our attitudes towards Montreal. Even if we pretend that **Elvis** had a point, he was still threadshitting. Of course, this is all supposing that we simply ignore the blatant falsehood of claiming that the people who actually carried out the 9/11 attacks were somehow based out of Montreal. I don’t see any reason we should ignore that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/75 "2008-08-18T00:49:53Z")
[QUOTE=wring] don’t like the phrase? [/QUOTE] It doesn’t matter if we like it or not. Like Elvis’s follow-up posts, it’s irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/76 "2008-08-18T01:04:39Z")
It gets more interesting. Seems Conrad Burns, a US Senator, made the same error in December 2005. Canada’s ambassador to the US, Frank McKenna, called him on it–but what is really interesting is that in his letter to Burns, McKenna quotes US Attorney-General John Ashcroft as saying “None of the terrorists from the Sept. 11 carnage came to the United States through Canada to my knowledge. Each of them that I know of, and we’ve done considerable work to trace their activities, came to the United States directly.” From [McKenna’s letter to Burns](http://geo.international.gc.ca/can-am/washington/ambassador/051220-en.asp), posted on the website of the Canadian Embassy in Washington DC: > [@Ambassador Frank McKenna](#): > > December 20, 2005 > > The Honorable Conrad Burns > United States Senate > > Dear Senator Burns, > > It was reported that during a press conference on December 19, you asserted that the people who struck the United States on 9/11 “entered through Canada”. This is patently false and, if left uncorrected, would significantly mislead Americans as to the events leading up to the September 11, 2001 tragedy. > > In fact, none of the 9/11 hijackers entered the United States through Canada. I draw to your attention two statements by then Attorney General John Ashcroft — the first made on December 3, 2001… > > “None of the terrorists from the Sept. 11 carnage came to the United States through Canada to my knowledge. Each of them that I know of, and we’ve done considerable work to trace their activities, came to the United States directly. So we don’t in any way want to suggest or reinforce or otherwise extend a myth which misperceives reality and the stubborn facts are that these individuals did not come to the United States through Canada.” > > I should also note that the 9/11 Commission devoted considerable research to the pattern of movements of those involved and it, too, could find no basis in fact to support the charge that the hijackers entered the United States from Canada. So we’ve got lots of evidence that the 9/11 hijackers did not come from Canada–are there any cites claiming otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/77 "2008-08-18T01:14:42Z")
[QUOTE=Spoons] So we’ve got lots of evidence that the 9/11 hijackers did not come from Canada–are there any cites claiming otherwise? [/QUOTE] Well, there’s that old story about each of us containing atoms once breathed by Jesus, Einstein, Ghandi, whomever. I suppose one could make the argument that some of the atoms which made up each hijacker had spent some time in Montreal. IIRC, Cecil has a column on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/78 "2008-08-18T01:31:09Z")
Answering the OP, I don’t think he could really be that stupid and still figure out how to log on to SDMB. But as far as I’m concerned it doesn’t really matter which he is; this thread has taught me that regardless of which answer turns out to be correct, **ElvisL1ves** is not someone that I will ever take seriously. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/79 "2008-08-18T01:44:17Z")
I propose that we no longer play his game. Until **ElvisL1ves** does one of the following: 1. States that he is unaware of any evidence that the 9-11 hijackers were based in Montreal 2. Provides some source for his belief that the 9-11 hijackers were based in Montreal 3. Gives us some reason for saying that the 9-11 hijackers were based in Montreal, even though he had no basis for that belief, other than that he was being a troll or a jackass 4. Admits that he said that the 9-11 hijackers were based in Montreal because he was being a troll, a jackass, or a threadshitter we should ignore any further posts he makes in this thread. Discussing the topic raised in the OP or submitting further evidence that the 9-11 hijackers were not based in Montreal (as if it’s needed), however, may continue. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/80 "2008-08-18T03:32:56Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] But as far as I’m concerned it doesn’t really matter which he is; this thread has taught me that regardless of which answer turns out to be correct, **ElvisL1ves** is not someone that I will ever take seriously. [/QUOTE] Indeed. I expect I’ll give a link back to his “9/11 perps” post when I see him in a thread about Canada or the Sept. 11 attacks and advise people who are considering debating him that this represents his knowledge level of these topics. I figure “safely based” might become to Elvis what “Showgirls” is to lissener, though the latter is humorous and the first is just sad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569.md?page=5)