# ElvisL1ves; Liar, or stupid? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 11, 2008, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569 "2008-08-11T03:52:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/81 "2008-08-18T05:20:00Z")
[QUOTE=LurkMeister] I propose that we no longer play his game. [/QUOTE] Just a thought, as I’m reminded of a different, but recent thread… Has anyone ever seen **lekatt** and **ElvisL1ves** in the same room at the same time? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/82 "2008-08-18T05:36:22Z")
[QUOTE=wring] you keep making your point,he ignores it and keeps making his (irrelevant) point, just like I said. very definition imho of 'taking past each other [/QUOTE] I think that Elvis is performing a useful service in reminding us that you can’t win an argument with an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/83 "2008-08-18T06:15:01Z")
I had tried to post this the other night, but… I don’t believe any of the 9/11 hijackers came to the US from Canada. Mohamed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, and Ziad Jarrah (collectively, “The Hamburg group”) all came to the US from Hamburg. Nawaf al Hamzi and Khalid al Mindhar came to the US from either Malaysia or Thailand. Hani Hanjour came to the US from Dubai via Paris. The rest all seem to have come from Dubai, after first assembling in Karachi. (This is all from the 9/11 Report, btw.) Are you sure you’re not comfusing this with Ahmed Ressam, the guy behind the Millenium Plot to blow up LAX airport, who was arrested while trying to cross the US-Canadian border? He had lived in Montreal for a time. There have been other Islamist terrorists based in Canada, but none of the 9/11 people. ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/84 "2008-08-18T11:54:20Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Thunderin’ Jaysus, if smugness were an export commodity, Canada could supply the whole galaxy. It’s true - preserving your own self-image of moral superiority matters more to you than adult responsibility. But a myth is a myth, and terrorist attacks are reality, and Canada’s provision of a nurturing environment for terrorists has a good deal of documentary support behind it. I still don’t see a single word of actual refutation of the actual point that started this discussion, not from any of you. Can any of you yappers provide anything at all authoritative to do so, or, for that matter, anything that’s even serious? [/QUOTE] I think I can make this a little easier for you. Cut and paste the below into a new post. * * * ## I, **ElvisL1ves** , was incorrect. I have no evidence that any of the 9/11 highjackers were based in Montreal at any time prior to the attacks. I would be interested in discussing the general topic of terrorists in Canada and if that country is too permissive. Would anyone care to join me in **GD**? Thank you and apologies for the misunderstanding. See? It includes an apology that your initial narrowly defined statement was indeed without support and redirects the conversation to what you appear to wish to defend. No, no. Don’t thank me. The satisfaction of helping is thanks enough. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/85 "2008-08-18T15:49:48Z")
[QUOTE=Cyros] No, no. Don’t thank me. [/QUOTE] … {crickets chirping} … ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/86 "2008-08-19T11:39:25Z")
Here’s a good one, and also from your own side of the border: > [@](#): > > Mohamedou Ould Slahi, who had come to Canada in 1998, stayed in Montreal’s Assuna Mosque where he sometimes led prayers. After his associate Ahmed Ressam was captured on the eve of the Millennium trying to sneak across the Canadian border with a trunkload of dynamite, Slahi managed to elude Canadian authorities and returned to Germany. \*\*According to the 9/11 Commission, Slahi recruited two of the 9/11 pilots \*\* (pp.165-6): Marwan al-Shehhi, the pilot of UA Flight 175, which crashed into the South Tower of the World Trade Center; and Ziad Jarrah, the pilot of UA 93, which went down in a field near Shanksville, Pennsylvania. He also collaborated closely with Mohammed Atta, who he knew from his university days in Germany. Slahi, who is now being held in Guantanamo, may not have been exactly one of the 19 hijackers, but **he was the next closest thing**. > > Abderraouf Jdey, who immigrated to Canada in 1991 and became a citizen in 1995, also lived in Montreal. The 9/11 Commission (p.527) speculates that Jdey was **initially part of 9/11 team of hijackers** , but that he may have been held back for a second wave of attacks or perhaps he pulled out himself while in Canada in the summer of 2001. Although his martyrdom video was found in the rubble of a Mohammed Atef’s bombed-out house near Kabul, Jdey remains on the FBI’s Terrorist Watch List and earlier in April a $5 million reward was offered for information. If he is indeed alive, the Canadian Government has never tried to remove his citizenship, or that of many other Islamic terrorists for that matter, including, by the way, Fateh Kamal, the Montreal cell’s “father” who allegedly recruited Ahmed Ressam and was allowed back in Canada earlier this year after having served a sentence on terrorism-related charges in France. > > The key supporting role of Slahi and Jdey in the September 11 terrorists attacks has never been acknowledged by the Canadian Government. The official line is still that Canada is getting a bum rap in the United States for being too soft on potential terrorists. It makes one wonder if anybody in the Canadian Government actually read the 9/11 Commission report. If \*that \* trivial distinction is all you’ve got left to hang your toques on, then I suppose you’re welcome to it. Realize, though, that if you continue to insist, it only emphasizes the point above about Canadians’ smug need to believe in their own self-righteousness above all else. Nevertheless, real people are still dead. A couple of whom I knew, too. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/87 "2008-08-19T12:17:32Z")
To get back to the \*original \* topic :rolleyes: , one several of you insist on ignoring for the fun of me-tooing a foolish (but typically Pittish) personal pile-on, to wit, what would “we” feel if Montreal were attacked by terrorists, can any of you anklebiters now begin to see how counterfactual a question that is? How improbable it is that Al Qaeda would even consider it? And, most of all, why not? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/88 "2008-08-19T12:41:51Z")
I think you are posting in the wrong thread. That’s not the topic here. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/89 "2008-08-19T15:37:36Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Here’s a good one, and also from your own side of the border: If \*that \* trivial distinction is all you’ve got left to hang your toques on, then I suppose you’re welcome to it. Realize, though, that if you continue to insist, it only emphasizes the point above about Canadians’ smug need to believe in their own self-righteousness above all else. Nevertheless, real people are still dead. A couple of whom I knew, too. [/QUOTE] Hey Douchebag, [here](http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/afghanistan/casualties/list.html) is a list of some real dead people, some of whom I knew. Cram your bullshit up your ass and take your fucked up ax-grinding back to the land of the hand stabbers where you belong. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/90 "2008-08-19T16:03:55Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Here’s a good one [/QUOTE] Except it doesn’t support the original claim. If this counts as being “safely based” in Montreal, then there must be at least ten other cities which similarly qualify. And by your own cite, Mohamedou Ould Slahi _wasn’t_ “safely based” in Montreal, because after Ahmed Ressam was arrested, Slahi had to “elude” authorities and flee to Germany. Montreal therefore doesn’t sound very safe. Germany is obviously much safer. As for Abderraouf Jdey, sure he lived in Montreal for a time, and he’s a secondary member of the 9/11 conspiracy. At the very least, your statement “the 9/11 perps” needs to be modified to “a 9/11 perp”, with it being made clear that in this context “perp” does not mean any of the 9/11 primaries or their leaders, which is what a reasonable person would assume. You can only justify your original statement by expanding it and you undercut your own effort by throwing in the childish insults. You’re a liar and you’re willfully stupid and you’ve thrown away whatever credibility you might have had. Congratulations. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/91 "2008-08-19T17:22:58Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Germany is obviously much safer. [/QUOTE] You mean safer than in the US where the terrorists lived for a year and learned to fly airplanes? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/92 "2008-08-19T17:35:26Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] You’re a liar and you’re willfully stupid and you’ve thrown away whatever credibility you might have had. [/QUOTE] Small loss, there. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/93 "2008-08-19T17:53:56Z")
Did **ElvisL1ves** ever have any credibility on this question? I can’t speak for his credibility on other matters because I hardly ever go to Great Debates and he’s been flying under my radar in the other forums (fora?). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/94 "2008-08-19T18:23:47Z")
Can’t he be both, like the late Earl Warren? [/Homer] ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/95 "2008-08-19T18:58:59Z")
ElvisL1ves’ playbook: > **[Conversational Terrorism: How NOT to Talk!](http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html)** > > An expose of conversational terrorism cheap shot tactics to notice and avoid. HOW NOT TO TALK! Read 'em and laugh - or weep if you must. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/96 "2008-08-19T19:46:59Z")
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe] ElvisL1ves’ playbook: > **[Conversational Terrorism: How NOT to Talk!](http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html)** > > An expose of conversational terrorism cheap shot tactics to notice and avoid. HOW NOT TO TALK! Read 'em and laugh - or weep if you must. [/QUOTE] Which raises the question: has **ElvisL1ves** ever been to Montreal? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/97 "2008-08-19T20:04:38Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Except it doesn’t support the original claim. [/quote] Which you can’t even quote accurately, as someone making an accusation of lying should at least be able do. The word I used was “perpetrators”, not “hijackers”, as you persistently and falsely claim (so you must be lying, by your own standards, eh?). If, instead, you merely can’t face the broader implications of information I linked just there, go complain to the Canadian who wrote it. Now. Even granting your silly narrowing of the topic from the original, which was at least something responsible if underinformed, to mere personal sniping, do you really wish to maintain that stance? Or is this a translation issue - perhaps “perpetrator” means something different up there? I believe you’ve claimed to have a law-enforcement background, so maybe that’s it - but that wouldn’t be consistent with a desire to accurately quote a statement you’re trying to claim are false, would it? Maybe there’s some kind of personal trainer you could go to for fucking-off lessons. Since, that is, you obviously can’t provide any of the simple refutation of the narrower claim, or any responsible discussion of the larger one, for that matter. Nor has anyfuckingbody else here, you’ll note. Not one single damned link or quote or any other statement but a simple “No they didn’t”. And it follows, necessarily, that your own assessment of who has credibility is as much a joke as **RickJay** ’s comment about “Republican talking points”. That one was truly a first in my time on this board, and I’m still chuckling over it. **Miller** , ftr, I’ve spent more time in Montreal, and been to more of Canada for that matter, than probably most Canadians. Since you asked so nicely and all. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/98 "2008-08-19T20:31:40Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Which you can’t even quote accurately, as someone making an accusation of lying should at least be able do. The word I used was “perpetrators”, not “hijackers”, [/QUOTE] Which of the names you’ve provided “perpetrated” the 9/11 hijackings? None, of course. Both names you cited were men who in fact had to flee Canada because the authorities were on their tail (so “Safely based” is a lie even for THEM) and neither participated in the attacks. Slahi was in Canada _for just two months_ before fleeing to Mauritania; Jdey apparently was alive and well when he ran away in November 2001. Neither were “perpetrators” of the 9/11 attacks. The attacks were committed by the hijackers. **That’s what “perpetrating” means.** And of course, it’s precisely what you meant, your protestations to the contrary; you clearly just didn’t know any better. That’s why it’s taken you quite some time to come up with the bullshit answer “Uh, by perpetrators, I didn’t mean the guys who perpetrated the attacks, I meant two guys who allegedly knew them.” In fact, none of the 19 men who actually perpetrated those attacks - the hijackers - were based in Montreal. All of them were in fact based in the United States, which is what you would expect. Your idiocy aside, most Muslim terrorist attacks have been committed by people who lived near the targets. The London bombings were carried out by residents of England; the Madrid bombings (mostly) by residents of Spain, and so on. If in fact there was a large cel of terrorists in Canada, it is most likely they would attack a Canadian target. In fact, the terrorists who WERE found and arrested in Canada allegedly planned to attack Canadian targets. You still have three choices. Looks like you’ve chosen #3. ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/99 "2008-08-19T20:36:16Z")
This thread is as dazzling an example of obfuscation and incorrigibilty as I’ve ever seen. It’s totally unmissable too, cheers Elvisdude! ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2008, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569/100 "2008-08-19T20:39:00Z")
From the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary: > [@](#): > > perpetrate _transitive verb_ > 1 : to bring about or carry out (as a crime or deception) : commit > 2 : to produce, perform, or execute (something likened to a crime) \ > perpetrator _noun_ Which to me indicates that the “perpetrators” of the 9-11 attack were the hijackers. Unless you’re trying to say that the only “perpetrators” of the 9-11 attack were the people referred to in the link you quoted in post #86. In which case, it looks like you’re the one trying to narrow the topic to fit your own personal agenda. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/elvisl1ves-liar-or-stupid/459569.md?page=6)