# Email service used by Snowden shuts itself down, warns against using US-based companies
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 10, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846 "2013-08-10T00:11:05Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/1 "2013-08-10T00:11:05Z")
> [@](#):
>
> A Texas-based encrypted email service recently revealed to be used by Edward Snowden - Lavabit - announced yesterday it was shutting itself down in order to avoid complying with what it perceives as unjust secret US court orders to provide government access to its users’ content. “After significant soul searching, I have decided to suspend operations,” the company’s founder, Ladar Levinson, wrote in a statement to users posted on the front page of its website. He said the US directive forced on his company “a difficult decision: to become complicit in crimes against the American people or walk away from nearly ten years of hard work by shutting down Lavabit.” He chose the latter.
>
> CNET’s Declan McCullagh smartly speculates that Lavabit was served “with [a] federal court order to intercept users’ (Snowden?) passwords” to allow ongoing monitoring of emails; specifically: “the order can also be to install FedGov-created malware.” After challenging the order in district court and losing - all in a secret court proceeding, naturally - Lavabit shut itself down to avoid compliance while it appeals to the Fourth Circuit.
>
> This morning, Silent Circle, a US-based secure online communication service, followed suit by shutting its own encrypted email service. Although it said it had not yet been served with any court order, the company, in a statement by its founder, internet security guru Phil Zimmerman, said: “We see the writing on the wall, and we have decided that it is best for us to shut down Silent Mail now.”
>
> What is particularly creepy about the Lavabit self-shutdown is that the company is gagged by law even from discussing the legal challenges it has mounted and the court proceeding it has engaged. In other words, the American owner of the company believes his Constitutional rights and those of his customers are being violated by the US Government, but he is not allowed to talk about it. Just as is true for people who receive National Security Letters under the Patriot Act, Lavabit has been told that they would face serious criminal sanctions if they publicly discuss what is being done to their company. Thus we get hostage-message-sounding missives like this:
>
> “I wish that I could legally share with you the events that led to my decision. I cannot. I feel you deserve to know what’s going on - the first amendment is supposed to guarantee me the freedom to speak out in situations like this. Unfortunately, Congress has passed laws that say otherwise. As things currently stand, I cannot share my experiences over the last six weeks, even though I have twice made the appropriate requests.”
>
> Does that sound like a message coming from a citizen of a healthy and free country? Secret courts issuing secret rulings invariably in favor of the US government that those most affected are barred by law from discussing? Is there anyone incapable at this point of seeing what the United States has become? Here’s the very sound advice issued by Lavabit’s founder:
>
> “This experience has taught me one very important lesson: without congressional action or a strong judicial precedent, I would _strongly_ recommend against anyone trusting their private data to a company with physical ties to the United States.”
Continued at
> **[Email service used by Snowden shuts itself down, warns against using US-based...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/09/lavabit-shutdown-snowden-silicon-valley)**
>
> Glenn Greenwald: Edward Snowden: 'Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Yahoo, Apple, and the rest of our internet titans must ask themselves why they aren't fighting for our interests the same way'
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/2 "2013-08-10T00:25:51Z")
yay. In the global scheme of things far more suffering is caused by abusive governments than by terrorists.
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### Author:  [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/3 "2013-08-10T01:01:23Z")
Ummm…because exponentially more people work for governments than are terrorists?
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### Author:  [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/4 "2013-08-10T13:39:12Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#):
>
> yay. In the global scheme of things far more suffering is caused by abusive governments than by terrorists.
Yes, I think that the authoritarianism that has taken root since 9/11 is far more of a threat to our way of life than terrorism is. I am hoping that this will at least start a conversation on the issue and get people to take notice of what is happening.
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### Author:  [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/5 "2013-08-10T14:23:44Z")
What percentage of the people who use these services are doing so to hide crimes or illegality? I am not sure facilitating child molesters, drug dealers, and other criminals is worth preventing possible government intrusion.
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### Author:  [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/6 "2013-08-10T14:37:04Z")
Is the Constitution the Constitution or is the Patriot Act the Constitution - legally, I don’t know how this was allowed to pass in the first place let alone remain …
> [@](#):
>
> “I have been forced to make a difficult decision: to **become complicit in crimes against the American people** or walk away from nearly ten years of hard work by shutting down Lavabit,”
Chilling.
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### Author:  [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/7 "2013-08-10T14:52:07Z")
> [@brickbacon](#):
>
> What percentage of the people who use these services are doing so to hide crimes or illegality? I am not sure facilitating child molesters, drug dealers, and other criminals is worth preventing possible government intrusion.
Ahh, another from the “nothing to hide” brigade. Since you have nothing to hide, I’ve called the NSA, FBI, CIA and your local police and sheriffs departments. They asked me to tell you that they’ll be over tomorrow between noon and four to install the cameras in every room in your house, including three in the shower and two in the toilet bowl, plus a backscatter device in the bedroom so you can’t hide under the sheets like a filthy terrorist or child molester. They also ask that you put together a list of all of your usernames and passwords.
You’ll be _very_ safe, I’m sure, and all at such a modest cost.
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### Author:  [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/8 "2013-08-10T14:57:09Z")
Let’s say I invent a customized invisibility cloak, and decide to sell it via my website. If the government asks me for my sales records, or access to my new invention that will allow one to see people wearing my cloak, should I comply? Would it be prudent to sell it in the first place? Who do you think would be the main consumers of such a product?
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### Author:  [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/9 "2013-08-10T15:17:08Z")
> [@brickbacon](#):
>
> Let’s say I invent a customized invisibility cloak, and decide to sell it via my website. If the government asks me for my sales records, or access to my new invention that will allow one to see people wearing my cloak, should I comply? Would it be prudent to sell it in the first place? Who do you think would be the main consumers of such a product?
What do you mean “ask”?
Rules as between gov and the people it represents are governed by laws, usually very hard-fought and hard-earned laws.
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### Author:  [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/10 "2013-08-10T15:26:34Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#):
>
> Ahh, another from the “nothing to hide” brigade. Since you have nothing to hide, I’ve called the NSA, FBI, CIA and your local police and sheriffs departments. They asked me to tell you that they’ll be over tomorrow between noon and four to install the cameras in every room in your house, including three in the shower and two in the toilet bowl, plus a backscatter device in the bedroom so you can’t hide under the sheets like a filthy terrorist or child molester. They also ask that you put together a list of all of your usernames and passwords.
>
> You’ll be _very_ safe, I’m sure, and all at such a modest cost.
Ah, another from the “idiot’s guide to irrational slippery slope arguments”. Fact is privacy and safety, law, order, etc. exist a as balancing act. There is a huge excluded middle between cameras in your house, and reading an email with a warrant or court order. The fact that you seem to think they are analogous notwithstanding.
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### Author:  [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/11 "2013-08-10T15:27:44Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#):
>
> What do you mean “ask”?
>
> Rules as between gov and the people it represents are governed by laws, usually very hard-fought and hard-earned laws.
Okay. Feel free to substitute “orders”. Please answer the other questions though.
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### Author:  [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/12 "2013-08-10T15:32:52Z")
… you could almost think the US Constitution no longer exists …
do the phrases “secret courts” and “first amendment rights” not ring any alarm bells?
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### Author:  [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/13 "2013-08-10T16:00:44Z")
This is very disturbing. I always thought that if the government of the US were to be subverted it would be by the acts of theocratic populists, not by such totalitarian excesses as have been engendered by the ill-named PATRIOT Act.
What should we as citizens do? Should we write our congress-critters? Should we write our President? Should we write strongly worded declamations on a message board?
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/14 "2013-08-10T16:37:45Z")
> [@brickbacon](#):
>
> Ah, another from the “idiot’s guide to irrational slippery slope arguments”. Fact is privacy and safety, law, order, etc. exist a as balancing act. There is a huge excluded middle between cameras in your house, and reading an email with a warrant or court order. The fact that you seem to think they are analogous notwithstanding.
The idiocy is on your side. He didn’t say they were equivalent. He was calling you on the fact that you just assumed that the company was home to child molesters et al. You thus stated that you think the only reason people might want privacy is that they’ve done illegal things.
Ergo it becomes okay for us to ask you to give up your own privacy, and notice how you suddenly don’t think that you have to have done something illegal to want privacy. Granted, he went a little overboard in what he asked, but it still got the desired response, so I don’t see a problem.
You really do not seem to have thought through anything about this. Even I could come up with a better reason not to care–what they are shutting down for would not seem to fall under the newly revealed program. The government has always been able to serve warrants to get digital data on suspected criminals, and you can’t get more suspected than Snowden.
And you could argue that the whole thing may be classified because it involves some military secrets or something. We have no way of knowing why they can’t tell us what they are doing.
You don’t need to say something that you’d expect to see on a YouTube comment.
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### Author:  [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/15 "2013-08-10T16:47:52Z")
For the record:
> [@](#):
>
> Court records show that, in June, Lavabit complied with a routine search warrant targeting a child pornography suspect in a federal case in Maryland. That suggests that Levison isn’t a privacy absolutist. Whatever compelled him to shut down now must have been exceptional.
[according to Wired’s article on this](http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/08/lavabit-snowden/).
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### Author:  [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/16 "2013-08-10T17:21:51Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#):
>
> This is very disturbing. I always thought that if the government of the US were to be subverted it would be by the acts of theocratic populists, not by such totalitarian excesses as have been engendered by the ill-named PATRIOT Act.
> What should we as citizens do? Should we write our congress-critters? Should we write our President? Should we write strongly worded declamations on a message board?
There are too many disconnects … how about working to restore the concept of the elected representing the people that elect them - that’s not going to begin to happen until corporations and other vested interests are taken out of election campaigning.
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### Author:  [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/17 "2013-08-10T17:35:31Z")
> [@BigT](#):
>
> The idiocy is on your side. He didn’t say they were equivalent. He was calling you on the fact that you just assumed that the company was home to child molesters et al.
I didn’t assume anything, although it is a pretty likely assumption given nature of their business.
> [@BigT](#):
>
> You thus stated that you think the only reason people might want privacy is that they’ve done illegal things.
No, I implied that it is one main reason people want to encrypt their emails. Which is perfectly logical, and borne out by the facts. It’s not the _only_ reason, which is why I asked:
“What percentage of the people who use these services are doing so to hide crimes or illegality? I am not sure facilitating child molesters, drug dealers, and other criminals is worth preventing possible government intrusion.”
Do you contend that such people don’t routinely utilize services such as this?
> [@BigT](#):
>
> You really do not seem to have thought through anything about this. Even I could come up with a better reason not to care–what they are shutting down for would not seem to fall under the newly revealed program. The government has always been able to serve warrants to get digital data on suspected criminals, and you can’t get more suspected than Snowden.
You don’t know that. They apparently can’t even discuss what the government asked for, and for what reason they did it. I guess you can assume the worst, but my original question still applies. What percentage of their user base is just hiding behind the privacy argument in order to facilitate crimes? If it’s 5%, then maybe you would have a point. That becomes less convincing it is 40% or 60%. This is a balancing act here.
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### Author:  [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/18 "2013-08-10T18:06:01Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#):
>
> What should we as citizens do? Should we write our congress-critters? Should we write our President? Should we write strongly worded declamations on a message board?
Step one: quit reelecting the assholes responsible for this garbage. Supporting these attacks on the American people should be a death sentence for your career. And don’t give me any bullshit about the Republicans being worse. That sort of stupidity is exactly why the CIA loves Obama, because he puts a friendly face on the same old monster.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/19 "2013-08-10T18:35:41Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Court records show that, in June, Lavabit complied with a routine search warrant targeting a child pornography suspect in a federal case in Maryland. That suggests that Levison isn’t a privacy absolutist. Whatever compelled him to shut down now must have been exceptional.
Like trying to track down a wanted fugitive and self-confessed traitor to this country which Lavabit has been providing aid and comfort to, whose continued status as a free man is a threat to the lives of Americans around the world, perhaps?
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### Author:  [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)
#### Post date: [August 10, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/20 "2013-08-10T18:47:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> Like trying to track down a wanted fugitive and self-confessed traitor to this country which Lavabit has been providing aid and comfort to, whose continued status as a free man is a threat to the lives of Americans around the world, perhaps?
Haha that was a good one.
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