# Email service used by Snowden shuts itself down, warns against using US-based companies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846 "2013-08-10T00:11:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/41 "2013-08-13T19:45:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’ve not seen that this surveillance is being applied against anyone who doesn’t deserve it. > **[CNET: Product reviews, advice, how-tos and the latest news](https://www.cnet.com/)** > > Get full-length product reviews, the latest news, tech coverage, daily deals, and category deep dives from CNET experts worldwide. > [@](#): > > The National Security Agency has acknowledged in a new classified briefing that it does not need court authorization to listen to domestic phone calls, a participant in the briefing said. > Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat, disclosed on Thursday that during a secret briefing to members of Congress, he was told that the contents of a phone call could be accessed “simply based on an analyst deciding that.” > If the NSA wants “to listen to the phone,” an analyst’s decision is sufficient, without any other legal authorization required, Nadler said he learned. “I was rather startled,” said Nadler, an attorney and congressman who serves on the House Judiciary committee. [http://now.msn.com/nsa-spying-extended-to-germany-france](http://now.msn.com/nsa-spying-extended-to-germany-france) > [@](#): > > Don’t worry, citizens. The U.S. isn’t just tapping your phones and rifling through your Internet records. They’re also doing it to our foreign allies, like Germany! German newspaper Der Spiegel has quoted secret NSA documents that classify Germany as a “third-class” partner, and show we’ve been spying on Germany about as much as we’ve been spying on China, Iraq or Saudi Arabia. On an averge day, the NSA monitored about 20 million German phone calls (60 million phone calls on a busy day) and 10 million Internet data sets. Only Canada, Australia, Britain and New Zealand were explicitly exempt from spy attacks, so move to one of those places if you truly want to live off the grid etc,etc, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/42 "2013-08-13T19:45:21Z")
If anyone out there is uncomfortable with this surveillance, but wants to _pretend_ to be in favor of it and make bad arguments to make those sorts of folks look bad (internet agent provocateur style), you now have a new strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/43 "2013-08-13T20:21:41Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > [CNET: Product reviews, advice, how-tos and the latest news](http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57589495-38/nsa-spying-flap-extends-to-contents-of-u.s-phone-calls/) > > [http://now.msn.com/nsa-spying-extended-to-germany-france](http://now.msn.com/nsa-spying-extended-to-germany-france) > > etc,etc, etc. Where’s the part about anyone being surveilled who isn’t a criminal suspect? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/44 "2013-08-13T20:39:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Where’s the part about anyone being surveilled who isn’t a criminal suspect? whoosh, right? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/45 "2013-08-13T20:41:19Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > … > “What percentage of the people who use these services are doing so to hide crimes or illegality? I am not sure facilitating child molesters, drug dealers, and other criminals is worth preventing possible government intrusion.” > > Do you contend that such people don’t routinely utilize services such as this? So for example, if you couldn’t disprove that no false vote would be cast you’d be ok with something so archaic as say a voter ID requirement to vote, cause, after all, only those wishing to game the system would have a problem with that requirement, right? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/46 "2013-08-13T20:42:38Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > [CNET: Product reviews, advice, how-tos and the latest news](http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57589495-38/nsa-spying-flap-extends-to-contents-of-u.s-phone-calls/) > > > [@](#): > > > > The National Security Agency has acknowledged in a new classified briefing that it does not need court authorization to listen to domestic phone calls, a participant in the briefing said. > > Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat, disclosed on Thursday that during a secret briefing to members of Congress, he was told that the contents of a phone call could be accessed “simply based on an analyst deciding that.” > > If the NSA wants “to listen to the phone,” an analyst’s decision is sufficient, without any other legal authorization required, Nadler said he learned. “I was rather startled,” said Nadler, an attorney and congressman who serves on the House Judiciary committee. The editors of the site that published that story have “corrected” their story: [Link.](http://www.zdnet.com/nsa-can-allegedly-listen-to-phone-calls-without-warrants-report-7000016864/) > [@](#): > > Summary: CORRECTED: The politician who allegedly said the U.S. National Security Agency can listen to phone calls of both U.S. residents and foreign nationals without a court order debunks the original report. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/47 "2013-08-13T21:51:51Z")
Don’t worry you little heads – [an “independent” (snort) review of the problem is being organized](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/13/obama_appoints_intelligence_boss_to_run_independent_review_of_nsa/): > [@](#): > > President Obama has appointed James Clapper, the US Director of National Intelligence who was recently caught misleading Congress about the extent of NSA surveillance, as the head of the Review Group on Intelligence and Communications Technologies that will investigate the agency… No word yet on the Administration’s appointments of Alex Rodriguez as anti-steroid czar or Whitey Bulger to head up a new anti-crime task force. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/48 "2013-08-13T23:03:32Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Ummm…because exponentially more people work for governments than are terrorists? Well, there’s also the fact that your average terrorist cell’s main means of action are handfuls of rusty AKs, more-than-dodgy RPGs, homegrown 'splosives and the contents of the head honcho’s piggy bank ; whereas governments can rely on tanks, banks, fighter planes, charter planes, atomic bombs and worst of all : lawyers. [QUOTE=Smapti] I’ve not seen that this surveillance is being applied against anyone who doesn’t deserve it. [/QUOTE] Quite. And I’m sure when you deserve it, you’ll be duly informed. Possibly by email. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/49 "2013-08-13T23:12:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I disagree. The enemies of the United States are the people who wish to kill me for no reason other than that I am an American. And by “meticulously releasing information to a critic of the US government”, Snowden has made sure that each and every one of those people knows, in considerably more detail than they did previously, the ways in which this country is trying to thwart them and how to make sure their plans stay secret until they get the body count they’re hoping for. > > Jingoism has nothing to do with it - I feel that my right to not be murdered by terrorists trumps your right to feel vaguely self-assured that info about who you send emails to isn’t being collated into a file that chances are nobody will ever look at. Good thing the founders included protection from unreasonable searches and seizures in our constitution. That pretty much trumps any right a guy named Smapti feels he is entitled to. Jingoism does have something to do with your confusion of the two disparate concepts of country and government. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/50 "2013-08-14T02:39:04Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > So for example, if you couldn’t disprove that no false vote would be cast you’d be ok with something so archaic as say a voter ID requirement to vote, cause, after all, only those wishing to game the system would have a problem with that requirement, right? What the fuck are you talking about? The point, as it is with voter IDs, is that if it can be demonstrated that government spying/IDs are necessary to prevent illegality, then such laws might make sense. What I am asking is what percentage of the people utilizing this service are criminals, just as many people ask how much voter fraud there is. If every election had rampant voter fraud, clearly some sort of legislation would be necessary. It has nothing to do with not being able to “disprove that no false vote” happened. It’s about trying to figure out how prevalent something is. The only difference is that whereas there is little individual incentive to cast a fraudulent vote, there is a lot of incentive for a criminal to encrypt their email; thus the level of suspicion should be higher. Either way, the principle is the same. Do you honestly think one of these email services whose user base is 90% criminals should be not be subject to government oversight and surveillance? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/51 "2013-08-14T03:55:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I disagree. The enemies of the United States are the people who wish to kill me for no reason other than that I am an American. Please. They want to kill you because you reelected a man who _jokes_ about the Pakistani men, women and children he’s had murdered. > [@](#): > > President Obama has appointed James Clapper, the US Director of National Intelligence who was recently caught misleading Congress about the extent of NSA surveillance, as the head of the Review Group on Intelligence and Communications Technologies that will investigate the agency… Oh, what a fucking surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/52 "2013-08-14T04:52:18Z")
Looking into it, Obama has apparently done some hand-waving and said Clapper is not the head of the review group, he just has veto power on who gets the security clearance necessary to be involved, and will report its findings to Obama. You know, because it’s such a great fucking idea to have the lying bastard who has spent the last three years collecting blackmail material on everyone in the entire country have any say on who investigates him, and to give him a second chance at lying his ass off about what his organisation has been doing. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/53 "2013-08-14T05:20:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Good thing the founders included protection from unreasonable searches and seizures in our constitution. That pretty much trumps any right a guy named Smapti feels he is entitled to. > > Jingoism does have something to do with your confusion of the two disparate concepts of country and government. What’s being unreasonably searched and seized? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/54 "2013-08-14T05:36:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What’s being unreasonably searched and seized? The electronic communications of the vast majority of people for whom there is no legitimate grounds to believe they are involved in any sort of criminal behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/55 "2013-08-14T11:46:47Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > The electronic communications of the vast majority of people for whom there is no legitimate grounds to believe they are involved in any sort of criminal behaviour. Quite. When you have specific information that a specific person is involved in crimnal activity then you can ask legal permission to look at specific information. You cannot surveil all the world, intercept all communications, electronically read all communications and then store an unknown number of those just in case they might be useful later on the basis of a legal ducument you won’t reveal and remain within the spirit of the constitution. Does the Constitution mean nothing? Does anyone think the Founding Fathers would have been okay with a machine that automatically copied everyone’s mail and stored any that had certain key words? ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/56 "2013-08-14T12:11:51Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > The electronic communications of the vast majority of people for whom there is no legitimate grounds to believe they are involved in any sort of criminal behaviour. Nothing on the internet is ‘private’ in a legal sense. You put it out on a public network, and anyone can read it. Similarly, if you have a conversation in a public place, somebody can hear it. So NSA hasn’t violated ‘search and seizure’. They have very carefully avoided breaking the law with all this. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/57 "2013-08-14T12:47:15Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Nothing on the internet is ‘private’ in a legal sense. You put it out on a public network, and anyone can read it. > Similarly, if you have a conversation in a public place, somebody can hear it. > So NSA hasn’t violated ‘search and seizure’. They have very carefully avoided breaking the law with all this. It breaks no law if “the law” is the Patriot Act. If “the law” is that other piece of paper - the Constitution, specifically the First Amendment - it emphatically does break the law. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/58 "2013-08-14T12:48:28Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > What I am asking is what percentage of the people utilizing this service are criminals We don’t take kindly to habitual JAQoffs in these parts, mister. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/59 "2013-08-14T12:53:24Z")
brickbacon - I want to close down the internet, what percentage of the people utilizing the Internet are paedophiles? ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/60 "2013-08-14T12:57:22Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > If “the law” is that other piece of paper - the Constitution, specifically the First Amendment - it emphatically does break the law. Could you please explain how the first Amendment plays into this? Are you going after the Freedom of Association angle? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846.md?page=4)