# Email service used by Snowden shuts itself down, warns against using US-based companies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846 "2013-08-10T00:11:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/61 "2013-08-14T14:33:41Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > brickbacon - I want to close down the internet, what percentage of the people utilizing the Internet are paedophiles? These sites decided to close themselves down. That said, the Internet as a whole is generally used for positive things. Yes, there is criminality, but not at a rate greater than one would expect. This, its utility is inept greater that an email encryption site, or any other enterprise likely to aid criminals. But I think this whole thing is funny given how you guys talk in such absolutes, buts seem to have had no problem with the government cracking down on Swiss banks and other tax havens. Who cried for Wegelin & Co when they shut down? Very few people because they were likely helping criminals more than providing a legitimately needed service. Whenyou have a business like that, don’t be surprised when the government has something to say about it. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/62 "2013-08-14T14:47:43Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > These sites decided to close themselves down. Only the same way a mugging victim “chooses” to hand over their wallet. He closed down his website because the alternatives were to either betray their customers’ constitutional rights, or take on the US government in a rigged court where he’d be charged with _more_ crimes if he dared to take any of the measures necessary to defend himself. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/63 "2013-08-14T15:48:38Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Only the same way a mugging victim “chooses” to hand over their wallet. He closed down his website because the alternatives were to either betray their customers’ constitutional rights, or take on the US government in a rigged court where he’d be charged with _more_ crimes if he dared to take any of the measures necessary to defend himself. Oh bullshit. One of these companies wasn’t even approached at all by the government. Regardless, it’s in question whether you have a constitutional right to email privacy, and most importantly, you don’t have a right to harbor criminals or impede law enforcement investigations. Don’t you think it’s strange that they guy is being so thoroughly strangled by the government that he must shut down because he has no ability to right back, but still has a legal defense fund open for donations? He gave up. Which is his right, but let’s not pretend he is some noble guys standing up for the little guy. He’s a businessman, just like the Swiss bankers, who has a business that is generally not worth defending on some distorted view of what is and isn’t private. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/64 "2013-08-14T15:51:35Z")
> [@](#): > > it’s in question whether you have a constitutional right to email privacy You don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/65 "2013-08-14T17:01:39Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Only the same way a mugging victim “chooses” to hand over their wallet. He closed down his website because the alternatives were to either betray their customers’ constitutional rights Please cite the Supreme Court ruling that makes any of the relevant NSA programs unconstitutional. … Yes, I thought as much. The CEO of Lavabit does not possess the prerogative to declare a law unconstitutional. > [@BrokenBriton](#): > > If “the law” is that other piece of paper - the Constitution, specifically the First Amendment - it emphatically does break the law. In what way do any of the relevant NSA programs consist of Congress penalizing people for exercising their right to free speech? I have yet to have Homeland Security bust down my door and clap me in irons for calling someone a n00b during a TF2 game. > [@tagos](#): > > Quite. When you have specific information that a specific person is involved in crimnal activity then you can ask legal permission to look at specific information. You cannot surveil all the world, intercept all communications, electronically read all communications and then store an unknown number of those just in case they might be useful later on the basis of a legal ducument you won’t reveal and remain within the spirit of the constitution. If the police install a camera at a busy intersection, are they violating the Fourth Amendment rights of everyone who passes by that camera? Are they legally obligated only to turn the camera on if someone calls them to tell them a crime is occurring? > [@](#): > > Does the Constitution mean nothing? Does anyone think the Founding Fathers would have been okay with a machine that automatically copied everyone’s mail and stored any that had certain key words? Frankly, I think they’d be more horrified by the fast that we let women and blacks vote and own property. > [@Grumman](#): > > You know, because it’s such a great fucking idea to have the lying bastard who has spent the last three years collecting blackmail material on everyone in the entire country have any say on who investigates him, and to give him a second chance at lying his ass off about what his organisation has been doing. Pure slippery slope. Come back when you have evidence of any of this information actually being used for blackmail, or evidence of “lying” in a context where telling the truth wouldn’t be an act of treason. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Jingoism does have something to do with your confusion of the two disparate concepts of country and government. The government is not some bizarre alien entity. The government derives its sovereignty from the people and is elected by the people. The reason these NSA monitoring programs exist is because _the people demanded them_. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/66 "2013-08-14T17:43:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The government derives its sovereignty from the people and is elected by the people. Er, you were supposed to [put the “United Way” update](http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-10-02/) between this statement and your admission and defense of misleading the people’s elected representatives. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/67 "2013-08-14T17:50:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Please cite the Supreme Court ruling that makes any of the relevant NSA programs unconstitutional. > > … > > Yes, I thought as much. > > The CEO of Lavabit does not possess the prerogative to declare a law unconstitutional. It’s hard to get a ruling in your favour when Obama’s modus operandii has been to criminalise any ability to establish legal standing to the court’s liking. For Al-Awlaki, the only person whose case they would accept was the man who would be murdered without trial if he attempted to make use of it. For Hedges v. Obama, the Second Court of Appeals overturned the decision against Obama on the grounds that until you’d actually been locked up in an oubliette _without access to the courts_, you don’t have legal standing to oppose the threat. It’s a depraved mindset that would and did make murder “legal”, on the grounds that the only person with legal standing to take the matter to the court has been rendered physically incapable of doing so. > [@](#): > > In what way do any of the relevant NSA programs consist of Congress penalizing people for exercising their right to free speech? I have yet to have Homeland Security bust down my door and clap me in irons for calling someone a n00b during a TF2 game. You couldn’t have chosen a worse example - a League of Legends player _has_ been imprisoned for five months, with the possibility of another eight years, for a sarcastic comment explicitly labeled as a joke, on the grounds that it was a “terroristic threat”. > [@](#): > > Pure slippery slope. Come back when you have evidence of any of this information actually being used for blackmail, or evidence of “lying” in a context where telling the truth wouldn’t be an act of treason. _He lied to Congress._ This isn’t just not an act of treason, it is a crime. Obama is literally putting a criminal in charge of reporting the results of an investigation into his own actions. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/68 "2013-08-14T18:34:00Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > It’s hard to get a ruling in your favour when Obama’s modus operandii has been to criminalise any ability to establish legal standing to the court’s liking. For Al-Awlaki, the only person whose case they would accept was the man who would be murdered without trial if he attempted to make use of it. For Hedges v. Obama, the Second Court of Appeals overturned the decision against Obama on the grounds that until you’d actually been locked up in an oubliette _without access to the courts_, you don’t have legal standing to oppose the threat. It’s a depraved mindset that would and did make murder “legal”, on the grounds that the only person with legal standing to take the matter to the court has been rendered physically incapable of doing so. Then it sounds to me like your beef is with a thousand years of English/American legal tradition, not with four years of Obama. > [@](#): > > You couldn’t have chosen a worse example - a League of Legends player _has_ been imprisoned for five months, with the possibility of another eight years, for a sarcastic comment explicitly labeled as a joke, on the grounds that it was a “terroristic threat”. He _did_ make a threat of a terroristic nature, did he not? > [@](#): > > _He lied to Congress._ This isn’t just not an act of treason, it is a crime. Obama is literally putting a criminal in charge of reporting the results of an investigation into his own actions. Divulging classified information is also a crime. Why is your outrage not directed at the member of Congress who forced Mr. Clapper to commit a felony? Oh, and no, it _isn’t_ an act of treason; [QUOTE=The Constitution] Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/69 "2013-08-14T18:49:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then it sounds to me like your beef is with a thousand years of English/American legal tradition, not with four years of Obama. Bass ackwards, as usual. The issue is the use of raw power to subvert a thousand years of Anglo-American legal tradition by denying access to the courts. > [@](#): > > He _did_ make a threat of a terroristic nature, did he not? No, he did not. Try reading for comprehension rather than speed next time. > [@](#): > > Divulging classified information is also a crime. Nonsense. Classified information is discussed within the halls of government all the time, by obvious necessity. > [@](#): > > Why is your outrage not directed at the member of Congress who forced Mr. Clapper to commit a felony? See previous point. Even if Clapper did not with to tell the truth for some reason, he was certainly not forced to tell lies; he simply chose to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/70 "2013-08-14T19:04:54Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Bass ackwards, as usual. The issue is the use of raw power to subvert a thousand years of Anglo-American legal tradition by denying access to the courts. Nobody was denying Mr. al-Alwaki access to the courts. If he was truly innocent, he could have presented himself in the US and stood trial. By hiding in a lawless region of the world, he _forced_ the use of extraordinary measures against him. > [@](#): > > No, he did not. Try reading for comprehension rather than speed next time. Then cite the way in which the relevant statement was not a terroristic threat. > [@](#): > > Nonsense. Classified information is discussed within the halls of government all the time, by obvious necessity. > > See previous point. Even if Clapper did not with to tell the truth for some reason, he was certainly not forced to tell lies; he simply chose to do so. “Within the halls of government” is a little different than “While posturing for style points on the media circus that is open session, thanks to the omnipresent C-SPAN camera”. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/71 "2013-08-14T19:30:18Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Nobody was denying Mr. al-Alwaki access to the courts. If he was truly innocent, he could have presented himself in the US and stood trial. By hiding in a lawless region of the world, he _forced_ the use of extraordinary measures against him. Stood trial for what crime? And how could he have returned when he was undoubtedly on the no-fly list? > [@](#): > > Then cite the way in which the relevant statement was not a terroristic threat. Merely saying the words “I think I’ll shoot up a kindergarten” does not automatically make a statement a threat - I did it just then, and only the most idiotic of police officers could conclude that I was serious. > [@](#): > > “Within the halls of government” is a little different than “While posturing for style points on the media circus that is open session, thanks to the omnipresent C-SPAN camera”. Then he should have declined to answer without perjuring himself. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/72 "2013-08-14T19:35:02Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Then he should have declined to answer without perjuring himself. Indeed; this is what makes **Smapti** ’s assertion that Clapper was “forced” to perjure himself particularly risible. Is Clapper afflicted with some neurological condition that renders him incapable of controlling his voicebox? Is he four years old? Did he consume a large bowl of Sugar-Frosted Meth Flakes before giving his testimony? > [@Smapti](#): > > “Within the halls of government” is a little different than “While posturing for style points on the media circus that is open session, thanks to the omnipresent C-SPAN camera”. And he failed to give the logical response, “I respectfully decline to answer until the session is closed to outside audiences” because…? Geez, I meant that “neurological condition” line as a bit of snark, but I suppose it can’t be ruled out. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/73 "2013-08-14T19:40:02Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Stood trial for what crime? And how could he have returned when he was undoubtedly on the no-fly list? He could have turned himself in. > [@](#): > > Merely saying the words “I think I’ll shoot up a kindergarten” does not automatically make a statement a threat - I did it just then, and only the most idiotic of police officers could conclude that I was serious. True story; in 2008, I made a statement in an online chatroom along lines similar to that, which resulted in my being interviewed by the Secret Service. Supposing that you _were_ generally intending to commit such a crime, the relevant law enforcement agencies would be viewed in retrospect as being remiss in their duties if, having seen your comment, they had just shrugged it off. > [@](#): > > Then he should have declined to answer without perjuring himself. Except that the law doesn’t allow him that option, since he wasn’t being ordered to testify against himself. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/74 "2013-08-14T20:33:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He could have turned himself in. To the people planning to murder him? Who had a history of buying innocent people and locking them up for years, commanded by a man who refuses to punish torturers? And not because he had been accused of any crime, but just because their boss wanted him dead? Would _you_ try to throw yourself on Obama’s mercy, if you were in Al-Awlaki’s position? > [@](#): > > Supposing that you _were_ generally intending to commit such a crime, the relevant law enforcement agencies would be viewed in retrospect as being remiss in their duties if, having seen your comment, they had just shrugged it off. Only by the mentally retarded. People with normal cognitive function understand the concept of quoting people. > [@](#): > > Except that the law doesn’t allow him that option, since he wasn’t being ordered to testify against himself. Oh really? What crime would he supposedly have committed by stating he could not legally answer the question in a public venue? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/75 "2013-08-14T20:50:04Z")
It occurs to me that to avoid all this crap in the first place, we could seriously just dial back our spying a bit. Less crap for people to leak, less for people to get worked up over. I’ve personally never been much of a fan of spying and I find it distasteful. However, I accept it because it saves lives. How many lives, I dunno, but it seems more and more that its not worth the cost we lose in privacy and surveillance. I won’t make a stand about what’s legal and what’s not, that’s for the lawyers to decide, but it does seem like the government is taking in far more information than it knows what to do with, and far more than can be useful. I wish we’d just stop the spying games almost completely. And I promise that I will not become one of those people who, if the government fails to prevent an attack, complains about how we should have been protected with more spying. I was against the Patriot Act on 9/12 and I remain so today. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/76 "2013-08-14T20:56:31Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > To the people planning to murder him? Who had a history of buying innocent people and locking them up for years, commanded by a man who refuses to punish torturers? And not because he had been accused of any crime, but just because their boss wanted him dead? Would _you_ try to throw yourself on Obama’s mercy, if you were in Al-Awlaki’s position? 1. Al-Alwaki was not “murdered”. Murder is, by definition, the _unlawful_ killing of a human being. The killing of al-Alwaki was done in a lawful manner. 2. I would prefer to “throw myself on Obama’s mercy” to being killed by a flying robot, yes. > [@](#): > > Oh really? What crime would he supposedly have committed by stating he could not legally answer the question in a public venue? Contempt of Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/77 "2013-08-14T21:43:48Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Oh really? What crime would he supposedly have committed by stating he could not legally answer the question in a public venue? > [@Smapti](#): > > Contempt of Congress. Nonsense. The issue is of open versus closed hearings, not compliance versus non-compliance (and perjury versus non-perjury). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/78 "2013-08-14T21:47:22Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Nonsense. The issue is of open versus closed hearings, not compliance versus non-compliance (and perjury versus non-perjury). And when the member of Congress in question insisted on an answer in open Congress, he committed felony entrapment against Mr. Clapper. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/79 "2013-08-14T23:02:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And when the member of Congress in question insisted on an answer in open Congress, he committed felony entrapment against Mr. Clapper. What _are_ you talking about? Either the truth can be legally stated in open session\* (in which case Clapper should have done so) or not (in which case Clapper could not be charged with contempt for insisting on closed session before answering). \*Given that any possible illegality would arise from law created by Congress, a Congressional demand that the information be stated in open session would, _ipso facto_, remove any question of illegality in any case. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846/80 "2013-08-14T23:05:33Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > And I promise that I will not become one of those people who, if the government fails to prevent an attack, complains about how we should have been protected with more spying. Obviously, spying is not a relevant metric in any case. The government already had the identities of the Boston Marathon bombers without having to spy on anyone, and they still whiffed it. For the government to claim that it needs expanded spying authority to keep us safe is like someone showing you slides of his recent round-the-world cruise on his new 60" plasma TV claiming that he needs more money to make ends meet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/email-service-used-by-snowden-shuts-itself-down-warns-against-using-us-based-companies/665846.md?page=5)