# Embassy Closings **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354 "2013-08-04T21:33:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/241 "2013-08-08T03:10:57Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > So how come people will accept at face value government assertions that a huge terrorist threat was detected and (apparently - still no explosions?) avoided without a single bit of proof, but will bend over backwards demanding proof of things like … oh, I don’t know, UFOs? Do you think Al Qaida exists? If so, are they hostile to us? What is your proof? Do you think UFOs exist? Are they hostile? What is your proof? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/242 "2013-08-08T03:19:20Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > _sigh_ yes, I know, I can’t prove it either way - but neither can you. So it comes down to personal choice… what do we choose to believe? I believe there may very well have been something to it but I do not unequivocally claim there was - or wasn’t - and then disparage others who have questions about it. I’m just pointing out (ha, that old canard) that it could have been - it could not have been - but we’ll never know until it’s too late. I haven’t unequivocally said this is true. I’ve said there is reason to think these government believe there really is a threat, and I’ve said the arguments to the contrary are very bad, which they are. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Do you think Al Qaida exists? If so, are they hostile to us? What is your proof? Terrorist activity in Yemen isn’t exactly an extraordinary claim either. ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/243 "2013-08-08T03:58:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I haven’t unequivocally said this is true. I’ve said there is reason to think these government believe there really is a threat, and I’ve said the arguments to the contrary are very bad, which they are. These governments thought Iraq had WMDs in 2003 as well. Or said they did. I find the blind faith in this instance quite remarkable when no doubt compared to what people with the blind faith thought in 2003 about claims made then. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/244 "2013-08-08T04:25:13Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Sure. You really haven’t seen many cities, have you? Buy up several entire city blocks. Evict the present owners / tenants and their legitimate businesses. Re-route multiple thoroughfares as needed. Maybe bulldoze some places to create free-fire lanes. And then what do you do with all the rest of the empty buildings? Station Marines in them? I’m going to characterize your suggestion, charitably I believe, as unrealistic. > > I don’t think Embassies are built primarily to resist attack, except on a sliding scale based upon the perceived threat when the Embassy was first constructed. Embassies are built to facilitate the business purposes of American diplomats and travelers. It’s realistic to build to the need. It’s unrealistic to take off a couple of days and expect that to mitigate a threat. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/245 "2013-08-08T04:26:07Z")
Some of the things the government has said, in the past, have turned out to be true. None of the things UFO believers have said has ever turned out to be true. Judging results by past performance is not “blind faith.” ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/246 "2013-08-08T05:07:53Z")
Sometimes governments lie. Sometimes governments tell the truth. Truth is more common than many seem to believe, _simply because lies are so easily detected these days._ (Google Edward Snowden or Julian Assange if that point is unclear.) To make distrust the _default_ response to government warnings is much too cynical. > [@Werekoala](#): > > … it could have been - it could not have been - but we’ll never know until it’s too late. I’ve underlined the phrase I wanted to ask about. _Too late for **what**?_ Too late for effective security measures because Obama’s opponents chose to sacrifice national security on the altar of political profit? Or too late to salvage American democracy because national leadership is held hostage by evil liars? If the latter is your concern, I recommend better-informed target selection. ---
**Author:** ![OurLordPeace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e8c25b/32.png) [@OurLordPeace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OurLordPeace)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/247 "2013-08-08T13:50:00Z")
I wish people would stop referring to their government as “we.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/248 "2013-08-08T13:56:58Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > These governments thought Iraq had WMDs in 2003 as well. Or said they did. Yes, and they also thought Osama bin Laden was in that house in Abbotabad. We know they’re wrong sometimes and right other times. > [@](#): > > I find the blind faith in this instance quite remarkable when no doubt compared to what people with the blind faith thought in 2003 about claims made then. This isn’t blind faith, though. I haven’t just taken their word; I’ve discussed why their actions support the general claim. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/249 "2013-08-08T13:59:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s realistic to build to the need. It’s unrealistic to take off a couple of days and expect that to mitigate a threat. You weren’t talking about “build[ing] to the need”, you were talking about RE-building to a _changing_ need. And a need identified only days ago, at that. > [@YOU](#): > > Actually you can put a bigger fence around something in the middle of a city. You buy the adjacent property. It’s still as ridiculous now as when you first proposed it. And I know the “Everything government does is incompetent, stupid and wasteful, and whatever ‘reasons’ it offers are certainly only excuses and cover-ups” crowd is in full throat here. Is that because those nearly-divine government entities, the military, the police, and fire fighters, are not directly involved in the decision to close the embassies? They always seem to be exempt from the blanket assignment of incompetence to government employees. C’mon, is it really believed these come from a separate gene pool from all other government workers? As for “take off a couple of days” being the only action taken, again, c’mon. This only makes sense if one has completely and totally swallowed the premise above. We can all see security officials in Washington and around the world sitting back in their overstuffed office chairs, cashing their lavish and unjustified paychecks, and saying to each other “I’m sure the threat will just go away in a few days, right, guys? We don’t need to do anything like hunt for the bad guys, or make some clandestine moves of equipment and personnel, do we? ‘Cause that would be what competent people do, and we’re government workers, so competence is ruled out by default.” ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/250 "2013-08-08T14:04:34Z")
Fwiw, the new US embassy in London is basically a medeival fortress/castle, dressed up to be not: [http://london.usembassy.gov/new\_embassy.html](http://london.usembassy.gov/new_embassy.html) ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/251 "2013-08-08T14:10:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, and they also thought Osama bin Laden was in that house in Abbotabad. We know they’re wrong sometimes and right other times. > > This isn’t blind faith, though. I haven’t just taken their word; I’ve discussed why their actions support the general claim. Um, bin Laden’s location was based on intelligence. WMDs were pulled straight out Bush’s ass. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/252 "2013-08-08T15:33:21Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Um, bin Laden’s location was based on intelligence. WMDs were pulled straight out Bush’s ass. And you know this embassy thing was pulled from someone’s ass and not based on intelligence? How? Doesn’t the information that’s been reported kind of sound like intelligence? And unfortunately blaming it all on Bush is misguided. His administration made the idiotic decision to go war, but Western intelligence had been wrong about Iraq and its weapons for years and years. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/253 "2013-08-08T16:19:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Doesn’t the information that’s been reported kind of sound like intelligence? You win the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/254 "2013-08-08T16:21:39Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > You win the thread. “Yeah right! Conference call!” Am I a skeptic yet? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/255 "2013-08-08T16:30:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > “Yeah right! Conference call!” Am I a skeptic yet? 😉 Use your brain, common sense and super-secretive notion of Al Q (super-secretive as in, only US Government can reach them for comment) and tell me that in the world that we live today a bunch of alleged retards from several continents, representing very different ideas and already on the run decides to hold… wait for it… a conference call, a conference call whose mechanical nature enables whoever is snooping-in to narrow the search from a several hundred haystacks to a tailor’s cabinet drawer? Ah, never mind … :o ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/256 "2013-08-08T16:43:16Z")
Yes, it’s such an obviously, laughably bad lie that anyone of even moderate supergeniosity can see through it. This is fairly typical of conspiracy theory claims, for whatever that’s worth: the conspiracy is always described as a brilliant and cunning group that somehow manages to leave clues that are moronically obvious. > [@newcomer](#): > > super-secretive as in, only US Government can reach them for comment You realize these guys have websites and online forums and publications, right? > [@](#): > > already on the run Bin Laden was “on the run” and not only was he still in touch with his subordinates (not over the phone, granted), he stayed in the same house for about five years. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/257 "2013-08-08T16:49:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Obama can’t win. > > Post-Benghazi: “Why weren’t the attack threats taken seriously? Why wasn’t embassy security given top priority?” > > Now: “How can we bow to terrorists by taking their attack threats seriously?” > [@Magiver](#): > > There were[multiple attacks in Libya](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Benghazi_attack) that provided a solid reason for prioritizing upgrades. But governments being what they are operate on their own time schedule so that’s to be expected. The problem with the last attack is that nothing was done to rescue them when assets were available to do so. We have the capacity to insert covert teams and they would be within distance to Benghazi. > > To make an analogy, the embassies weren’t given the fire extinguishers they asked for in a timely manner and then were denied help from the fire department when the building caught fire. It’s not a function of arriving too late. It’s a function of never sending them out in the first place. I’ve read your response four times now, and I am no closer to understanding it than I was at first. My point was simple: Obama (and his administration) were pilloried because of their supposed failure to properly handle the attack at Benghazi. Now we see many of the same people inveigh against Obama and his administration because of their cautious response to the current threat. I don’t understand how your response relates to that claim. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/258 "2013-08-08T19:19:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And you know this embassy thing was pulled from someone’s ass and not based on intelligence? How? Doesn’t the information that’s been reported kind of sound like intelligence? > > And unfortunately blaming it all on Bush is misguided. His administration made the idiotic decision to go war, but Western intelligence had been wrong about Iraq and its weapons for years and years. Never said any such thing, but you go ahead and make stuff up if you like. Western intelligence was wrong for years and years but now it’s all 100% thanks to NSA snooping on Americans which has nothing to do with the embassy closings. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/259 "2013-08-08T19:25:27Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Never said any such thing, but you go ahead and make stuff up if you like. What are you complaining about now? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/260 "2013-08-08T19:34:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What are you complaining about now? You making stuff up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354.md?page=14)