# Embassy Closings **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354 "2013-08-04T21:33:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/61 "2013-08-05T11:07:31Z")
Having to reschedule your visa interview is hardly bringing the west to its knees. Embassies close all the time for holidays and the like. It’s not a huge deal. I am beginning to suspect some people here are disappointed that there (hopefully) wont be a set of embassy attacks. It would have been nice, wouldn’t it, to have a real failure to pin on Obama? Something a bit more substantial than Benghazi? If you could have evacuated the Benghazi consulate before the attack, you would have. If you could have evacuated the World Trade Center before the attacks, you would have. The idea that anyone would “stand strong” in the face of a specific threat is absurd, and I’m not buying that any of you would think this is wrong if it weren’t for partisan bellyaching. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/62 "2013-08-05T12:30:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You absolutely need to cite that because it looks an awful lot like bullshit. > [@](#): > > Many terrorism experts do not believe that the global jihadist movement is driven at every level by al-Qaeda’s leadership. Although bin Laden still held considerable ideological sway over some Muslim extremists before his death, experts argue that al-Qaeda has fragmented over the years into **a variety of regional movements that have little connection with one another.** Marc Sageman, a psychiatrist and former Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) officer, said that **al-Qaeda is now just a “loose label for a movement that seems to target the West”.** “There is no umbrella organisation. We like to create a mythical entity called [al-Qaeda] in our minds, but that is not the reality we are dealing with.” NOTE: He meant “umbrella” as an organizational structure. My use of umbrella is in line with “loose label for a movement”. > **[Al-Qaeda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda)** > > Other groups: > Former groups: > Non-state allies: ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/63 "2013-08-05T12:50:16Z")
And yet, while the OP is so firmly opposed to the embassy closings, Republicans in Congress seem to be fully supportive of the President’s decision: [GOP, Democrats Support Closing US Embassies](http://www.voanews.com/content/gop-democrats-support-closing-us-embassies/1723328.html) > [@](#): > > U.S. lawmakers and former high-ranking officials say the closing of more than 20 American embassies and consulates and the issuance of a global travel alert are both extraordinary and appropriate responses to credible terrorist threats. > > Republican lawmakers are often critical of President Barack Obama’s decisions. Not so when it comes to current embassy closings and a global travel warning. The chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, Republican Michael McCaul, spoke on the CBS Face the Nation television program. > > “We are on a high state of alert," he said. "I think the administration’s call to close these embassies was actually a very smart call.” > … > > … Also appearing on This Week was the ranking Democrat on the committee, Rep. Dutch Ruppersberger, who said there must be no repeat of last year’s deadly attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya. > > “It was unfortunate what happened with Benghazi, and we need to learn about what happened and make sure that our highest priority will be to protect Americans," Ruppersberger said. "So we need to take every precaution, and that is what we are doing right now.” Hmmm - ranking Republican in the highly partisan House Republican caucus supporting a security decision by the President. It’s almost as if he knows something we don’t know, maybe even has seen the intel? Naaah. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/64 "2013-08-05T12:52:02Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > NOTE: He meant “umbrella” as an organizational structure. My use of umbrella is in line with “loose label for a movement”. > > [Al-Qaeda - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda) Let’s look at what Marc Sageman wrote about people who think he is saying that there is no such thing as Al Qaeda: > [@](#): > > I am compelled to respond to Bruce Hoffman’s review essay, “The Myth of Grass-Roots Terrorism” (May/June 2008), in which he substantially misrepresents my new book, Leaderless Jihad. . . . > > Most serious, \*\*Hoffman blatantly misrepresents my position on the status of al Qaeda’s central leadership. \*\*He writes, “Leaderless Jihad’s salient weakness is its insistence that this dimension [informal local terrorist groups] represents the entire threat facing the United States today.” He adds, **"According to Sageman, al Qaeda has ceased to exist as either an organizational or an operational entity**" and claims that “the grass-roots dimension … is Leaderless Jihad’s sole preoccupation.” . . . [note – this is what **newcomer** is aruging.] > > **What the book actually says is that the threat from this core group is still substantial** and will grow if vigilance is relaxed. I wrote, **"Al Qaeda Central is of course not dead,** but it is still contained operationally…" . . . And one of my recommendations is that **"the core group of people who comprise al Qaeda Central – those who have blood on their hands or are plotting against the United States – must be eliminated or captured and tried for their crimes**." [Cite.](http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/64460/marc-sageman-and-bruce-hoffman/does-osama-still-call-the-shots) So, in Sageman’s own words, your belief that there is no Al Qaeda anymore is a “substantial misrepresent[ation]” of what he said. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/65 "2013-08-05T12:57:01Z")
Just the fact that he had to say “Al Q Central” shows that one needs to engage in a complex semantic exercise before trying to explain a simple concept such as a terrorist organization. As I mentioned earlier, Al Q does not exist in the same sense as IRA or Hamas, all semantic permutations notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/66 "2013-08-05T12:57:10Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > So while a few dozen employees of the embassy got the day off because of fears for their safety, many thousands of Israeli commuters were allowed to drive and walk right by the building, with no concern for their safety. Ummmm… you do realize that the building was never the target, right? The targets are the embassy employees. No targets, no attack. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/67 "2013-08-05T12:58:58Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The idea that anyone would “stand strong” in the face of a specific threat is absurd, and I’m not buying that any of you would think this is wrong if it weren’t for partisan bellyaching. The threat was not specific at all. Embassies were closed on the “assumption”. It does make a great show though and fills up a news cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/68 "2013-08-05T13:06:23Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Ummmm… you do realize that the building was never the target, right? The targets are the embassy employees. No targets, no attack. The point is this - if al-Qaeda has assets in Tel Aviv capable of carrying out an attack, us Tel Avivians would like to know about it. The U.S. Embassy isn’t the only high-quality target here. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/69 "2013-08-05T13:09:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Certainly nobody has said the Fort Hood shooter or the Tsarnaevs were part of Al Qaeda either. Hasan had some contact with Anwar al-Awlaki but they were always discussed as individuals, not members of AQ despite their attacks. > **[Former CIA Terrorism Director To Matthews: Boston Bombs Bear The ‘Hallmark Of...](https://www.mediaite.com/tv/former-cia-terrorism-director-to-matthews-boston-bombs-bear-the-hallmark-of-al-qaeda/)** > > The type of improvised explosive devices used in the attack on the Boston Marathon on Monday bear “the hallmark of Al Qaeda,” according to former CIA Counterterrorism Director Larry Johnson. In an interview with MSNBC’s Chris Matthews on Tuesday,... > [@](#): > > The type of improvised explosive devices used in the attack on the Boston Marathon on Monday bear “the hallmark of Al Qaeda,” according to former CIA Counterterrorism Director Larry Johnson. How could you forget about “the hallmark of Al Qaeda”, the ultimate phrase in 21st century Newspeak when it comes to stuff hinted, insinuated or suggested. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/70 "2013-08-05T13:11:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Also appearing on This Week was the ranking Democrat on the committee, Rep. Dutch Ruppersberger, who said there must be no repeat of last year’s deadly attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya. > > “It was unfortunate what happened with Benghazi, and we need to learn about what happened and make sure that our highest priority will be to protect Americans," Ruppersberger said. "So we need to take every precaution, and that is what we are doing right now.” Gee whiz, a Democrat who is willing to say “Look at the elephant” that the whole SDMB can’t seem to notice. Obama didn’t act on previous threats to our embassies, people died, and it took a _fuck_ of a lot of spin to get him thru the election without admitting it. To give him credit, he seems at long last to have wised up. OK, better late than never. [QUOTE=Northern Piper] Hmmm - ranking Republican in the highly partisan House Republican caucus supporting a security decision by the President. It’s almost as if he knows something we don’t know, maybe even has seen the intel? Naaah. [/QUOTE] Everybody knows the eeeeeevil Republicans are automatically opposed to everything Obama does, no matter what, even if it hurts the country. Only, not. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/71 "2013-08-05T13:44:09Z")
Too bad Bush didn’t learn the same lesson, who had more embassy attacks and more deaths on his watch. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/72 "2013-08-05T13:54:30Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Just the fact that he had to say “Al Q Central” shows that one needs to engage in a complex semantic exercise before trying to explain a simple concept such as a terrorist organization. > > As I mentioned earlier, Al Q does not exist in the same sense as IRA or Hamas, all semantic permutations notwithstanding. You don’t get to cite a person to back up your point, have that cited person write an article correcting an inaccurate reading of what he said (and then have him go on to say that the point you were trying to make is wrong anyway), and then you go and use his correction as evidence that he is wrong and you were right to cite him in the first place because your misreading of him is more accurate than what he was actually saying. That, sir, is total bullshit. And by the way, which IRA are you referring to? The IRA which disbanded just after World War I? The Provisional IRA? The Real IRA? The Continuity IRA? If the IRA disbanded decades ago, and today the Real IRA carries out attacks, can you please explain to me how that is so different than core Al Qaeda being put on the ropes, and Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula becoming more active? ---
**Author:** ![Werekoala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7993a0/32.png) [@Werekoala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Werekoala)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/73 "2013-08-05T13:59:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Too bad Bush didn’t learn the same lesson, who had more embassy attacks and more deaths on his watch. Obama has three more years, give the guy a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/74 "2013-08-05T14:23:13Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I simply do not believe thhis ‘threat’. It’s just a way to say to Senators - ‘see we need to be doing all this snooping shit. Trust us.’ Why do you think a bunch of other countries also closed embassies? > [@newcomer](#): > > NOTE: He meant “umbrella” as an organizational structure. My use of umbrella is in line with “loose label for a movement”. In other words, he doesn’t agree with you. “Some experts say” is not the assertion you made either. > [@newcomer](#): > > How could you forget about “the hallmark of Al Qaeda”, the ultimate phrase in 21st century Newspeak when it comes to stuff hinted, insinuated or suggested. That’s a comment on how the bombs were designed, not a statement that the guys were members of Al Qaeda. And the statement about the design is disputed by nobody as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/75 "2013-08-05T15:23:34Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > He authorized taking the shot on pirates holding hostages. The Navy needs permission from the President to shoot at pirates? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/76 "2013-08-05T15:25:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why do you think a bunch of other countries also closed embassies? The UK also has its snooping problems and just like with the Iraq ‘intelligence’ others take on trust what those with the resources are telling them. I don’t believe a word of it. It’s just hand-waving to scare few Senators into not curtailing NSA activities. Both the US and UK governments deliberately lied about Iraq. Unless and until I see some solid evidence to the contrary my default position is ‘they are lying now’, particualrly when it comes at such a politically opportune time. This is all hogwash. [NSA Defenders speak](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/04/nsa-us-embassy-closures-terrorist-threat?guni=Keyword:alternate-grid%20main-3%20Top%20stories%20standard%20trailblock:Pickable%20with%20editable%20override:Position1) > [@](#): > > Intelligence committee members in Washington who had been briefed on the alert said it was the most serious they had seen for years and repeatedly cited the threat during Sunday’s political talk shows as a reason to resist growing calls in Congress for reform of the NSA’s sweeping powers. > > “There has been an awful lot of [terrorist] chatter, which is very reminiscent of what we saw pre-9/11,” said the Republican senator Saxby Chambliss on NBC’s Meet the Press. “As we come to the end of Ramadan, which is always an interesting time for terrorists, and the upcoming 9/11 anniversary, this is the most serious threat that I have seen in the last several years.” > > Chambliss, who was briefed by the vice president, Joe Biden, last week, said he believed the intelligence had been gathered by the NSA using foreign surveillance powers granted under section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. > > “This is a good indication of why they [the surveillance powers] are so important,” he said. This is just a PR campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/77 "2013-08-05T15:34:36Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The UK also has its snooping problems and just like with the Iraq ‘intelligence’ others take on trust what those with the resources are telling them. Gee, I seem to recall a lot of countries disputing intelligence on Iraq. Am I to assume France and Germany and Norway and all these other countries also have “snooping problems” I wasn’t aware of? Despite the “nuh-uh!”-ing going on here, it looks like a lot of countries felt something serious was going on here. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/78 "2013-08-05T15:36:45Z")
Any explosions anywhere yet? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/79 "2013-08-05T15:42:10Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The Navy needs permission from the President to shoot at pirates? Considering the dismal track record of America’s interference in Somalia during the Clinton Admin, I don’t think any officer would (or should) do **anything** there without checking first with the President. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354/80 "2013-08-05T16:03:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Gee, I seem to recall a lot of countries disputing intelligence on Iraq. Am I to assume France and Germany and Norway and all these other countries also have “snooping problems” I wasn’t aware of? Despite the “nuh-uh!”-ing going on here, it looks like a lot of countries felt something serious was going on here. They closed them because of an interpol alert. Annd if all this ‘chatter’ comes from intercept then Interpol is just acting on the US political scaremongering. Fool me once etc. And yes, France has it’s own [snooping issues](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/05/french_snooping_as_deep_as_prism_ile_mondei/). And Germany [has big ambitions to do even more than they do now](http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130619/09064523528/germanys-spies-have-nsa-envy-working-their-own-comprehensive-snooping-system.shtml). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/embassy-closings/665354.md?page=5)