# EMP attack = End of U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567 "2008-11-26T16:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![robz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@robz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/1 "2008-11-26T16:03:33Z")
From [What a Single Nuclear Warhead Could Do - WSJ](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122748923919852015.html) “An EMP attack is not one from which America could recover as we did after Pearl Harbor. Such an attack might mean the end of the United States and most likely the Free World.” The article, which being in the Wall Street Journal must have some credibility, lays out a senerio where one nuclear missle exploded over the middle of the U.S. would “effectively throw America back technologically into the early 19th century.” First is this possible? Are the results depicted reasonable? Is the statement that the U.S. possibly would not recover from such an attack realistic? Or is this neocon, military, industrial, complex fantasy? Early 19th century? Thats like 1820’s right? Would early 20th century be more accurate? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/2 "2008-11-26T16:09:35Z")
I’m surprised The Wall Street Journal didn’t include a handy little map with an ‘X’ on it, to give the extremists a bit more fuel for their fantasies! ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/3 "2008-11-26T16:14:44Z")
They are exactly right! The U.S. would crumble… for about 10 minutes. Then we’d turn things on again. EMP does not normally damage hardware. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/4 "2008-11-26T16:15:14Z")
Now that the cat’s out of the bag, as it were, wasn’t it on this board in another thread where I read that you could also just make an EMP bomb, that Popular Mechanics showed how to make one, and that it was cheap and easy? Anyway, the link is from an editorial, not an article, and the person writing it has his reasons for doing so. Not that it means he’s wrong, but it certainly must be taken into account. Also, the stuff I mentioned above seems to be a more likely scenario than the one in the editorial - taking out the entire US seems to me more difficult than a few major cities. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/5 "2008-11-26T16:18:09Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Anyway, the link is from an editorial, not an article, and the person writing it has his reasons for doing so. Not that it means he’s wrong, but it certainly must be taken into account In this case his reason is pushing for a missile defense system. I’m thinking not a lot of people here will be wowed by his argument. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/6 "2008-11-26T16:37:24Z")
Right, EMP, that’s why the airplanes deploying the bombs over Japan in 1945 both crashed immediately after the bomb exploded… oh, wait, they didn’t. Nor did their radios cease to function although there’s no question those airplanes were subjected to EMP effects from a nuclear explosion. I don’t doubt that some electronics would cease to function after such a pulse, but I disagree that EVERYTHING would cease to function. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/7 "2008-11-26T16:51:01Z")
Well considering the entire point of the internet and other such technological systems developed during the Cold War was to give the US redundant systems to survive such an attack. I somehow doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Kokopilau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Kokopilau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kokopilau)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/8 "2008-11-26T16:54:24Z")
This is such an old idea, it was actually used as the justification for the Soviet domination of America in the 1987 TV miniseries [Amerika](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_(TV_miniseries)). The old Fox Jessica Alba sci-fi series Dark Angel also had the technological regression caused by an EMP bomb as one of its backstory elements, though on a smaller scale. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/9 "2008-11-26T16:58:13Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Right, EMP, that’s why the airplanes deploying the bombs over Japan in 1945 both crashed immediately after the bomb exploded… oh, wait, they didn’t. Nor did their radios cease to function although there’s no question those airplanes were subjected to EMP effects from a nuclear explosion. > > I don’t doubt that some electronics would cease to function after such a pulse, but I disagree that EVERYTHING would cease to function. To quote the wiki article. > [@](#): > > The worst of the pulse lasts for only a second, but any unprotected electrical equipment — and anything connected to electrical cables, which act as giant lightning rods or antennas — will be affected by the pulse. Older, vacuum tube (valve) based equipment is much less vulnerable to EMP; Soviet Cold War–era military aircraft often had avionics based on vacuum tubes. There are a number of websites that explore methods for protecting equipment in the home or business from the effects of an EMP attack. > > Many nuclear detonations have taken place using bombs dropped by aircraft. The aircraft that delivered the atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not fall out of the sky due to damage to their electrical or electronic systems. This is simply because electrons (ejected from the air by gamma rays) are stopped quickly in normal air for bursts below 10 km, so they do not get a chance to be significantly deflected by the Earth’s magnetic field (the deflection causes the powerful EMP seen in high altitude bursts), but it does point out the limited use of smaller burst altitudes for widespread EMP > [@](#): > > According to an internet primer published by the Federation of American Scientists[2] > > ``` > A high-altitude nuclear detonation produces an immediate flux of gamma rays from the nuclear reactions within the device. These photons in turn produce high energy free electrons by Compton scattering at altitudes between (roughly) 20 and 40 km. These electrons are then trapped in the Earth's magnetic field, giving rise to an oscillating electric current. This current is asymmetric in general and gives rise to a rapidly rising radiated electromagnetic field called an electromagnetic pulse (EMP). Because the electrons are trapped essentially simultaneously, a very large electromagnetic source radiates coherently. > > The pulse can easily span continent-sized areas, and this radiation can affect systems on land, sea, and air. The first recorded EMP incident accompanied a high-altitude nuclear test over the South Pacific and resulted in power system failures as far away as Hawaii. A large device detonated at 400–500 km (250 to 312 miles) over Kansas would affect all of the continental U.S. The signal from such an event extends to the visual horizon as seen from the burst point. > > ``` So - an EMP pulse in space could affect the whole continental USA. Whether it could wipe out civilisation is another matter. [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse) ---
**Author:** ![Prelude\_to\_Fascination](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Prelude\_to\_Fascination](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prelude_to_Fascination)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/10 "2008-11-26T17:04:12Z")
Back in the early 80s, the American Association for the Advancement of Science put out a magazine called Science 8x (Science 80, Science 81, Science 82, etc. for the year). As I recall, there was an article about EMPs, and how it (an EMP) would fry all but hardened electronics, and the US had precious few hardened grids. So unless the US has hardened its grid, I think the circuitry would be destroyed, even if the actual products wouldn’t be. In other words, we’d be screwed, and virtually all communication would stop. How widespread the damage would be depends on how interconnected grids in different cities and states are. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/11 "2008-11-26T17:09:59Z")
> [@Kokopilau](#): > > TThe old Fox Jessica Alba sci-fi series Dark Angel also had the technological regression caused by an EMP bomb as one of its backstory elements, though on a smaller scale. Actually, I think the bigger effect was the economic havoc caused when the banking data got wiped out. To quote the first episode, “All those ones and zeroes became just zeroes”. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/12 "2008-11-26T17:19:28Z")
Wow, that article sure conveyed a sense of ‘you think the financial crisis is scary? Well let’s not forget what you’re really supposed to be scared off! Terrorists! They can kill you even deader than you think!’. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/13 "2008-11-26T17:22:30Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Wow, that article sure conveyed a sense of ‘you think the financial crisis is scary? Well let’s not forget what you’re really supposed to be scared off! Terrorists! They can kill you even deader than you think!’. As has been observed - everything about that article smacked of a new round of lobbying for the fiction of missile defence. Another appeal for corporate welfare. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/14 "2008-11-26T17:50:47Z")
Well the thing to understand is a terrorist attack with an EMP would be localized. Al Qaeda isn’t going to be setting off an EMP in low Earth orbit. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/15 "2008-11-26T18:18:22Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well the thing to understand is a terrorist attack with an EMP would be localized. Al Qaeda isn’t going to be setting off an EMP in low Earth orbit. Not really their point, I don’t think… it wasn’t to put a specific name on the attack, but to say that the attack could happen. And it could. Somebody could also label all the beer bottles in America as screw-top bottles when they weren’t in time for the 4th of July and cripple the american workforce. Possible? Maybe. Likely? No. I’m more worried about plain old mechanical failure of the computers used to keep track of all the banking data on Wall Street. No need for an EMP there when you can just lose a few critical systems and suddenly everybody’s hoping the disaster recovery plan actually works. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/16 "2008-11-26T20:28:47Z")
> [@robz](#): > > “An EMP attack is not one from which America could recover as we did after Pearl Harbor. Such an attack might mean the end of the United States and most likely the Free World.” And the US stands by and does nothing of its own with an EMP counterattack on the rest of the planet? ---
**Author:** ![Malienation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Malienation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malienation)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/17 "2008-11-26T20:36:59Z")
Haven’t read the article, but know a little about the issue. It’s not a paranoid fantasy. Vacuum tubes are much less vulnerable than transistors, not that you see many of them these days (except in, say, the final output transmitter of a commercial TV station). One issue that may be reassuring: generally, the equipment has to be on. If it’s shut off, it’s much less vulnerable. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/18 "2008-11-26T20:44:29Z")
Sounds like shit to me. Assuming the worst case scenario, that the Wall Street et. al. were shizzled, doesn’t mean the end of the US as such. We have oodles of military hardware designed to during the Cold War to remain functional during a Hot War. So they fuck up my bank records and I can’t access internet porn for a while (maybe)…they still aren’t in a position to exploit the “opening” they created. We’ll all still be here. Our stuff will all still be here. All kinds of nasty, explosive shit will be on its way there… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/19 "2008-11-26T22:56:03Z")
Plus I’d hope the banks have a sane back up policy. But with recent events who knows how sane banks are. ---
**Author:** ![flex727](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@flex727](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flex727)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/20 "2008-11-26T23:13:56Z")
> [@Malienation](#): > > One issue that may be reassuring: generally, the equipment has to be on. If it’s shut off, it’s much less vulnerable. Admittedly, my knowledge of this is a bit sketchy, but what mechanism are attributing the damage to be from? I can’t envision any that requires the power to be on before damage occurs. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567.md?page=2)