# EMP attack = End of U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567 "2008-11-26T16:03:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/21 "2008-11-26T23:27:07Z")
One thing that wouldn’t be hit hard is communications. Most long-distance communications nowadays is via fiber optic cable, and glass, being nonconductive, is unaffected by EMP. Also, only hardened equipment would be unaffected, but “unaffected” vs. “destroyed” is a false dichotomy. At least some equipment would blow a fuse or trip a surge protector, and be otherwise unharmed. Plus, of course, there’s the question of who would have the capability to do this. The US and Russia definitely can, France probably, and China maybe, but that’s about it. A bomb big enough to fry the entire US, and the means to get it into space above the US, is far beyond the reach of any rogue state or terrorist group. That doesn’t mean we should get totally complacent, of course, but it does mean we should be no more worried about this now than we were during the Cold War (which, in case you didn’t notice, ended). ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/22 "2008-11-27T02:44:39Z")
> [@flex727](#): > > Admittedly, my knowledge of this is a bit sketchy, but what mechanism are attributing the damage to be from? I can’t envision any that requires the power to be on before damage occurs. I haven’t read up on the technical details of an EMP attack. But if we’re talking about a magnetic field exerting a force on a wire, then the force is proportionate to the current flowing through the wire. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/23 "2008-11-27T02:54:03Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Now that the cat’s out of the bag, as it were, wasn’t it on this board in another thread where I read that you could also just make an EMP bomb, that Popular Mechanics showed how to make one, and that it was cheap and easy? I’ve read in the past that it’s not all that hard to make a non-nuclear EMP bomb; IIRC it basically consists of wrapping an electromagnet around explosives. You don’t get nearly the same radius of effect you would with a nuke though. Supposedly the US dropped some on Iraq in the first Gulf War. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/24 "2008-11-27T02:54:24Z")
My god! We’ll be powerless! At the mercy of raging currents of electricity! If only we had something that could act like a fuse or something. oh…wait. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/25 "2008-11-27T02:57:13Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > My god! We’ll be powerless! At the mercy of raging currents of electricity! If only we had something that could act like a fuse or something. > oh…wait. I don’t believe that fuses make much difference, since the effect hits the whole system from outside, instead of travelling along a wire. It’s rather like expecting a dike to stop rain falling from the sky. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/26 "2008-11-27T07:05:18Z")
That EMP weapon in _Ocean’s 11_ was pure fantasy, though, wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/27 "2008-11-27T08:22:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That EMP weapon in _Ocean’s 11_ was pure fantasy, though, wasn’t it? I never watched it, but according to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean's_Eleven_(2001_film)) they used a “[pinch](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics)#Depictions) device”, something that actually exists, so it’s not pure fantasy. Whether the effects the device has in the film are fantasy I don’t know ( since I don’t know what they were, and never heard of a pinch device before now ). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/28 "2008-11-27T09:43:15Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t believe that fuses make much difference, since the effect hits the whole system from outside, instead of travelling along a wire. It’s rather like expecting a dike to stop rain falling from the sky. The energy is coming from the sky, but the current is flowing along the wire just like any other current. The limitation on fuses isn’t where the energy is coming from, but that many fuses wouldn’t react quickly enough. Still, some would. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/29 "2008-11-27T10:48:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I never watched it, but according to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean's_Eleven_(2001_film)) they used a “[pinch](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinch_(plasma_physics)#Depictions) device”, something that actually exists, so it’s not pure fantasy. Whether the effects the device has in the film are fantasy I don’t know ( since I don’t know what they were, and never heard of a pinch device before now ). Cool, thanks. $500 seems like a lot of money just to crush cans, though. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/30 "2008-11-27T11:31:59Z")
And after the big bad EMP, we’d all get modern systems, to replace the older/obsolescent systems that got destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/31 "2008-11-27T12:12:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I don’t believe that fuses make much difference, since the effect hits the whole system from outside, instead of travelling along a wire. It’s rather like expecting a dike to stop rain falling from the sky. The danger is in the flow of charge, not the accumulation. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/32 "2008-11-27T12:50:45Z")
> [@Kokopilau](#): > > This is such an old idea, it was actually used as the justification for the Soviet domination of America in the 1987 TV miniseries [Amerika](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_(TV_miniseries)). I’m not the only person that watched AMERIKA!!! (Great beginning, decent ending, really slogged through the middle) Wonder when that’s ever gonna be released on DVD? Maybe at the same time as WILD PALMS. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/33 "2008-11-28T14:48:36Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > They are exactly right! The U.S. would crumble… > > for about 10 minutes. Then we’d turn things on again. EMP does not normally damage hardware. Sorry, wrong answer. EMP does cause severe hardware damage to anything with modern semiconductor devices that is not properly shielded. It induces voltage spikes in circuits that will destroy transistors and integrated circuits. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/34 "2008-11-28T14:58:44Z")
> [@Malienation](#): > > One issue that may be reassuring: generally, the equipment has to be on. If it’s shut off, it’s much less vulnerable. If it’s shut off, unplugged from all cables, and stored in a shielded box. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/35 "2008-11-28T15:59:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That EMP weapon in _Ocean’s 11_ was pure fantasy, though, wasn’t it? Even if it wasn’t, it was only localized to Las Vegas. First of all, the only thing that could create an EMP blast across all of the US is a high altitude detonation of an atomic bomb. Something only a few countries could do. Second, there were several high altitude A-bomb detonations back when we used to test the things, so why didn’t they black out the entire US? And finally, even if it did work, we’ve experienced mass blackouts before. It would be expensive and annoying, but it wouldn’t be the end of the world. ---
**Author:** ![flex727](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@flex727](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flex727)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/36 "2008-11-28T16:09:34Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > I haven’t read up on the technical details of an EMP attack. But if we’re talking about a magnetic field exerting a force on a wire, then the force is proportionate to the current flowing through the wire. I don’t think we’re talking about a magnetic field, but rather an electromagnetic field (hence the “E” in EMP), which is quite a different beastie. The physical force that you are talking about being induced is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/37 "2008-11-28T16:10:45Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And finally, even if it did work, we’ve experienced mass blackouts before. It would be expensive and annoying, but it wouldn’t be the end of the world. Exactly, even when there was a massive blackout ([2003 North America blackout](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_North_America_blackout)), the amount of people who just say back and hung out with their family/friends/neighbors far outstripped the looting, criminal jackasses. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/38 "2008-11-28T16:12:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Second, there were several high altitude A-bomb detonations back when we used to test the things, so why didn’t they black out the entire US? It might have something to do with the fact that the tests were conducted at Johnston Island, 1400 km west of Hawaii. They did cause problems in the Hawaiian Islands. > **[Starfish Prime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime)** > > Starfish Prime was a high-altitude nuclear test conducted by the United States, a joint effort of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) and the Defense Atomic Support Agency. It was launched from Johnston Atoll on July 9, 1962, and was the largest nuclear test conducted in outer space, and one of five conducted by the US in space. > A Thor rocket carrying a W49 thermonuclear warhead (designed at Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory) and a Mk. 2 reentry vehicle was launched from Johnston Atoll in the Pa... ---
**Author:** ![DeptfordX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/39 "2008-11-29T00:58:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Plus, of course, there’s the question of who would have the capability to do this. The US and Russia definitely can, France probably, and China maybe, but that’s about it. A bomb big enough to fry the entire US, and the means to get it into space above the US, is far beyond the reach of any rogue state or terrorist group. That doesn’t mean we should get totally complacent, of course, but it does mean we should be no more worried about this now than we were during the Cold War (which, in case you didn’t notice, ended). _Hey_, lets not forget the UK. We could totally destroy you damned colonial rebels if we wanted to.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567/40 "2008-11-29T16:19:51Z")
> [@DeptfordX](#): > > _Hey_, lets not forget the UK. We could totally destroy you damned colonial rebels if we wanted to.🆒 Heh. I remember something about you saying this twice before. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/emp-attack-end-of-u-s/474567.md?page=3)