# Empire equals theft, how? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990 "2020-01-26T14:06:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/1 "2020-01-26T14:06:20Z")
This motif crops up from time to time in discussions I read and it got me wondering, whilst there are instances of theft from native populations due to unequal treaties, how is it theft if the empire in question was the government body and was responsible for the area it controlled? Also, it’s not as if the resources of that area would not have been exploited by people in said country for the same purpose, so how is it any worse? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/2 "2020-01-26T14:18:57Z")
“the government body and was responsible for the area it controlled?” By what authority does it control the area? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/3 "2020-01-26T14:19:12Z")
1. Who appointed/elected them as government in the first place? 2. Who should decide what is the best use of resources in any given area, to whose benefit? 3. What happens to the value extracted from this resources, and who should decide that? 4. Who should decide on future development of the economy and public services in any given area? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/4 "2020-01-26T14:25:01Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > “the government body and was responsible for the area it controlled?” > > By what authority does it control the area? It depends on the context and circumstances, you get places which are outright conquered, and others where they’re invited to set up shop as long as the native ruling class gets its dues. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/5 "2020-01-26T14:34:20Z")
> [@](#): > > **PatrickLondon** > > 1. Who appointed/elected them as government in the first place? Native governments can be worse than the imperial one which replaces it. > [@](#): > > 1. Who should decide what is the best use of resources in any given area, to whose benefit? What if that resource is only available due to imperial financing of research into extracting it? > [@](#): > > 1. What happens to the value extracted from this resources, and who should decide that? The people who put in the capital and labour to extract the resources should be compensated for the effort they put in, and the decision again, is based on the premise an elite in the society wouldn’t do the same thing as an empire based company. > [@](#): > > 1. Who should decide on future development of the economy and public services in any given area? All highly dependent on circumstance ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/6 "2020-01-26T14:41:08Z")
Well do you consider the Viking raids or that of the Huns to be just lawful gathering, I’m sure they did. Sure we can legalize forms of what is obviously theft, even if we legally exclude that activity as theft (as a piece of turd by any other name would smell as sweet). As for if the natives would do the same, I think we have some evidence that it would not. Some gold rich countries have denied other countries mining privileges even though the country stands to get a substantial income from it while it lasts. But the local population pans for gold by hand, and has no desire to do any modern mining as that is also for future generations. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/7 "2020-01-26T15:09:24Z")
Ryan, The argument - extortion of my neighbors’ property creates an entitlement to recover my costs - is not relevant to the OP. The OP poses two issues - is it theft and a value judgement of the quality of government. Were the governments of central America worse than that of Spain? I don’t see much difference between them. Both engaged in war, torture and religious human sacrifice. Both were orderly, god fearing societies. The only difference is that the Spanish deported resources while the Aztecs used them locally. By what authority did Spain control central America? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/8 "2020-01-26T15:19:38Z")
The Spanish decimated the population with small pox then enslaved the remainder to remove all the silver and gold thus impoverishing the country for centuries. Perhaps Spain is now entitled to recover it’s costs. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/9 "2020-01-26T17:03:44Z")
> [@](#): > > The Spanish decimated the population with small pox then enslaved the remainder to remove all the silver and gold thus impoverishing the country for centuries. But smallpox wasn’t by design, that was merely by contact. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/10 "2020-01-26T17:40:57Z")
Hello uncivilized native person, we have decided that it is in your best interest to be part of our empire, and we hope that our large numbers or ships and guns, and most importantly our [flag](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k)will convince you that we are correct in our belief. As superior beings it is our solemn duty to turn you unwashed heathens into civilized laborers. In exchange for saving your souls and enlightening you to the greatness of our culture, is all of your mineral and ecological wealth, which you weren’t using anyway, and as a measure of our benevolence we have allowed you to extract for us. Do we have a deal? Yes? Good. Now bring me a cool drink, this white man’s burden does raise a frightful thirst. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/11 "2020-01-26T20:06:42Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > … Also, it’s not as if the resources of that area would not have been exploited by people in said country for the same purpose, so how is it any worse? I often invest several minutes to Google out articles that will refute an erroneous view like this. But in this case, your claim is too absurd to waste a Google. Read about the British deliberately turning the Chinese into opium addicts so the Brits could profit with opium sales. Read about the Belgian Congo. Recall the Spanish galleons in the Atlantic loaded with gold and silver: Were they sailing westward or eastward? Closer to the 20th century U.S., read about the United Fruit Company. If I were to waste a Google I might link you to a paper showing that most of the Indian subcontinent was held to a food level just enough to prevent starvation while Britons profited. Does any of this help? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/12 "2020-01-26T20:45:48Z")
Ryan, Oh, small pox was just a spill over cost. Like the remnants of uranium mining on the Navajo reservation. “how is it theft if the empire in question was the government body and was responsible for the area it controlled?” Sorry to be repetitious, but by what authority did your ‘empire’ become responsible for the area? Spain/Mexico? Certainly not by discovery - the Mexicans had already discovered it. It was obviously theft for the Cherokee to be removed from their privately owned houses, farms and stores. Not naked savages. Just folks like us. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/13 "2020-01-26T21:20:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Ryan, > > Oh, small pox was just a spill over cost. Like the remnants of uranium mining on the Navajo reservation. But smallpox would have happened anyway if it was just limited to contact and trading and not colonisation. > [@](#): > > Sorry to be repetitious, but by what authority did your ‘empire’ become responsible for the area? Spain/Mexico? Certainly not by discovery - the Mexicans had already discovered it. They conquered the other empires in the area and therefore became responsible for the areas they previously governed, with the added situation of the area being depopulated due to no immunity against diseases from the old world. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/14 "2020-01-26T21:29:24Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Hello uncivilized native person, we have decided that it is in your best interest to be part of our empire, and we hope that our large numbers or ships and guns, and most importantly our [flag](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k)will convince you that we are correct in our belief. As superior beings it is our solemn duty to turn you unwashed heathens into civilized laborers. In exchange for saving your souls and enlightening you to the greatness of our culture, is all of your mineral and ecological wealth, which you weren’t using anyway, and as a measure of our benevolence we have allowed you to extract for us. Do we have a deal? Yes? Good. Now bring me a cool drink, this white man’s burden does raise a frightful thirst. Made me think of this: > [@](#): > > “The usual example given to illustrate an Outside Context Problem was imagining you were a tribe on a largish, fertile island; you’d tamed the land, invented the wheel or writing or whatever, the neighbors were cooperative or enslaved but at any rate peaceful and you were busy raising temples to yourself with all the excess productive capacity you had, you were in a position of near-absolute power and control which your hallowed ancestors could hardly have dreamed of and the whole situation was just running along nicely like a canoe on wet grass… when suddenly this bristling lump of iron appears sailless and trailing steam in the bay and these guys carrying long funny-looking sticks come ashore and announce you’ve just been discovered, **you’re all subjects of the Emperor now, he’s keen on presents called tax** and these bright-eyed holy men would like a word with your priests.” Of course there were many types of empires. If the empire is taking resources from the absorbed or conquered areas and using it for themselves, it sounds a lot like theft. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/15 "2020-01-26T21:36:03Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The Spanish decimated the population with small pox then enslaved the remainder to remove all the silver and gold thus impoverishing the country for centuries. > > Perhaps Spain is now entitled to recover it’s costs. The Spanish government actually made this argument. (Not about the smallpox, which as noted was seen as unconnected with the Spanish arrival.) Their reasoning was that they were delivering Christianity to the Native Americans. The gold, silver, and forced labor which the Spanish collected was worth far less than the eternal salvation which they were giving. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/16 "2020-01-26T21:55:03Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Native governments can be worse than the imperial one which replaces it. > > What if that resource is only available due to imperial financing of research into extracting it? > > The people who put in the capital and labour to extract the resources should be compensated for the effort they put in, and the decision again, is based on the premise an elite in the society wouldn’t do the same thing as an empire based company. > > All highly dependent on circumstance I basically agree it depends. The assumed example is European empires, which introduces a personal/emotional aspect for many people of European descent who feel strong pressure in their social circles to condemn their culture’s past by and large. Let’s eliminate that by sticking to non European (or ‘non-white’) empires as examples. In which case I think it would indeed depend. Empires could indeed bring more advanced knowledge and forms of organization. Also the ability to protect and enforce order. I don’t think you can say as a hard rule than no subject people was ever better off under an empire. And talking about ‘whose legal right’ to the resources and ‘theft’ is kind of silly over history in general. One primitive people that controlled a given area with valuable resources might just as easily have driven off/bumped off another primitive but perhaps less warlike people who lived in the same area quite recently before the empire arrived. Obviously there were many cases where empires were heavy on coercion and light on providing any real benefit to subject peoples. Some largely eliminated subject peoples (either deliberately or through less deliberate spread of disease). But I don’t think you can say that no empire was ever beneficial for a subject people compared to the real alternatives at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/17 "2020-01-26T22:36:45Z")
The question of the OP is: how is empire theft. Answer: It is taking of property without legal title. That is why I’m asking by whose authority did the empire gain control? If by invasion, it was theft. If by legal documents made outside of the country involved, it is theft. If by arbitrary exercise of authority (Jackson) it is theft. Maybe that’s OK, but it is still theft. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/18 "2020-01-26T23:07:31Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Native governments can be worse than the imperial one which replaces it. Does that in some way intersect with the definition of “theft”? No, it does not > [@](#): > > What if that resource is only available due to imperial financing of research into extracting it? Well, if you don’t want to be thieves you make them a business offer. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/19 "2020-01-27T00:17:00Z")
Yesterday was Australia Day here. It celebrates the white settlement of the country on that date in 1788. However descendants of the people living here at the time see it slightly differently - [Invasion Day protests held across nation and in London to challenge Australia Day date](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-26/invasion-day-protests-call-for-australia-day-date-change/11900422). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/20 "2020-01-27T00:27:49Z")
The legal argument seems weak in cases like this. As the OP noted, a government has the power to make any act legal just by declaring it so. I feel a more useful standard for deciding what is right and wrong is reversibility. If a government is deciding whether an act directed at another country is right or wrong it should ask itself what its response would be if some hypothetical third country was directing the same act against them. So if a country is thinking about taking over another country and is telling itself, _“We’re not doing anything so bad. Sure, we’ll be running things in that country and taking out their raw materials but we’re going to be helping them to develop into a better place. They’ll actually benefit from us taking over.”_ they should ask themselves if they would be okay with more advanced country taking over their country for the same reasons. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990.md?page=2)