# Empire equals theft, how? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990 "2020-01-26T14:06:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/81 "2020-01-29T18:46:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So when the Aztec **EMPIRE** conquered all the other tribes, killing many, enslaving many and sacrificing a good number on altars- that was “internecine” and had nothing to do with 'empires"? Sorry, where was I talking about the Aztecs? > [@](#): > > And there were two different cultures there that clashed over farming lands That’s not what the actual scientists studying the site think. Perhaps you were … let’s say confused … by the references to earlier Siouxan culture strata at the start of the cite. Maybe you want to reread it - the \*whole \*thing, this time, not just the bits that you think are an easy gotcha. > [@](#): > > it doesnt fit “Definition of internecine > 1: of, relating to, or involving conflict within a group” > > Do _you_ know the meaning of the word? :rolleyes: The word “internecine” **was a quote from his own cite**. ---
**Author:** ![TimfromNapa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@TimfromNapa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimfromNapa)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/82 "2020-01-29T22:09:36Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Ryan, > > The argument - extortion of my neighbors’ property creates an entitlement to recover my costs - is not relevant to the OP. > > The OP poses two issues - is it theft and a value judgement of the quality of government. > > Were the governments of central America worse than that of Spain? I don’t see much difference between them. Both engaged in war, torture and religious human sacrifice. Both were orderly, god fearing societies. The only difference is that the Spanish deported resources while the Aztecs used them locally. > > By what authority did Spain control central America? By authority of the Christian God, of course. ---
**Author:** ![TimfromNapa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@TimfromNapa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimfromNapa)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/83 "2020-01-29T22:14:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, not at all. The Aztecs had an empire. They stole land from other people. It was no different than when the Spanish stole land from the Aztecs. > > Lots of Native Americans had empires. They stole land from other Native Americans long before the Europeans arrived. And then the Europeans stole land from them. Yes, the Aztec Empire was part of the continuum of empires in that region. However, a least they were engaged in conflict in their own neighborhood and on pretty even terms with their adversaries. Oh, and they did not attempt to completely annihilate the cultures of their foes. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/84 "2020-01-29T22:30:54Z")
> [@](#): > > **MrDibble** > Naah. No financial impetus, no revolution. You really believe that BS don’t you? Have a read of this, and get back to me, thanks. > **[Thomas Savery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Savery)** > > Thomas Savery (/ˈseɪvəri/; c. 1650 – 15 May 1715) was an English inventor and engineer. He invented the first commercially used steam-powered device, a steam pump which is often referred to as the "Savery engine". Savery's steam pump was a revolutionary method of pumping water, which improved mine drainage and made widespread public water supply practicable. > Thomas Savery was born at the manor house of Shilstone, near Modbury, Devon. He became a military engineer, rising to the rank of captai... > [@](#): > > Yes, it is. No it’s not, I’ve not blamed the Native Americans for anything, I’ve just stated they were not passive in their circumstances. > [@](#): > > No, I’m not. And “passive actors” is an oxymoron, really. Fair enough, then they were not background actors in their own circumstances. > [@](#): > > So what? So you’re asking for a Utopian ideal, it’s not gonna happen. > [@](#): > > There’s no such place. Garbage, Barbados became depopulated and then colonised with indentured Europeans and African slaves. > [@](#): > > Reduced population is not unpopulated. This is the Myth of the Empty America, and it’s a lie. Yes, America was significantly depopulated by disease. Yet European settlers encountered some Native Americans everywhere. Doesn’t mean areas of colonisation were not without people. Emphasis on _some_. > [@](#): > > So Empire consists of kicking sick people while they’re down and then robbing them, instead of taking their stuff after a fair fight. That still doesn’t make it “not theft”. How can they “rob” them if nobody is left alive in that particular area? > [@](#): > > I’m just waiting for you to come up with a new argument, given the ones you’ve just recycled were already demolished years ago. Lol what? What argument did I have ‘demolished’ Years ago? I don’t have an argument, I’m exploring the concept through discussion, of which you are taking highly personally. > [@](#): > > But nice try at accusing me of argumentum ad passiones, there. I mean, it’s obviously bullshit, but well done, you. No need for me to try when it’s blatantly obvious you are. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/85 "2020-01-29T22:40:12Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Lol what? What argument did I have ‘demolished’ Years ago? I don’t have an argument, I’m exploring the concept through discussion, of which you are taking highly personally. Example of impersonal discussion: > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You really believe that BS don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/86 "2020-01-29T22:56:57Z")
> [@](#): > > **Little Nemo** > No, it really is that simple. You just don’t like the answer. I don’t like the answer because it’s not that simple, and you know it. > [@](#): > > And, as other people have pointed out, your “depopulation” story isn’t what happened. It happened in Barbados. Nor have I said depopulation did happen in North America, I posed a hypothetical of when it becomes a circumstance, is it still theft? > [@](#): > > Native populations were reduced by disease but they weren’t eliminated. Native populations may not have been wiped out altogether but they were eliminated from certain areas. > [@](#): > > There were still natives living in the lands when Europeans showed up. No one has said that wasn’t the case in this thread, implied or otherwise. > [@](#): > > So the Europeans did not take over unoccupied land; they stole the land from the people who were living there. _Some_ Europeans stole _some_ land which was unoccupied. This is your problem with nuance. Case in point. > [@](#): > > For nearly a century before the landing of the Mayflower in 1620, the Ninnimissinuok sporadically experienced direct contact by European explorers[25] and for decades before that the indirect consequences of European cod fishermen off the Newfoundland banks.[e] > > **The effect of these early encounters was profound. First, and more immediately catastrophic, Europeans brought a variety of diseases[f] for which the aboriginal population had no resistance.** **When the English settlers arrived, they discovered that vast swaths of Southern New England, previously prepared for cultivation and settlement by extensive deforestation and land preparation was devoid of all inhabitants.** [29] > > Second, more gradual but equally profound for the economic and social conditions of the Natives, the “Fur Trade” engaged in at first by the Newfoundland fishermen, and later, more systematically by the French and English, destroyed the previously existing continental intertribal pattern of exchange in which the Natives traded local products in a system of extensive and peaceful commerce. > > \*\*That system was replaced by an economy driven by the demand of the Europeans for one product (animal pelts). The new economy resulted in intense intertribal rivalries and hostilities, which eventually allowed the English to play one off against the other.[30] \*\* > > In addition to contributing to the first two causes of calamity, the English created immense ill-will and eventually hostilities by their aggressive approach to settlement, the brutality of which was apparent even before the first settlers.[31] This was the result of the system the English employed which depended exclusively on private profiteers. > > [g] Richard Hakluyt made plain the goals that the entrepreneurs would pursue in an “inducement” he wrote in 1585: “The ends of this voyage are these: 1, to plant the Christian religion; 2, To trafficke; 3, To conquer; Or, to do all three.”[32] The first goal was never seriously pursued.[h] > **[Ninnimissinuok](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninnimissinuok)** > > Ninnimissinuok is an indigenous term, to refer to Native Americans of southern New England region. These people include the Pawtucket, Massachusett, Nipmuck, Pokanoket, Niantic, Mohegan and Pequot, as well as the people of western Connecticut and Long Island. This term, a variation of the Narragansett word Ninnimissinûwock, which means roughly 'people', connotes familiarity and shared identity. > The use of the term Ninnimissinuok does not imply, however, a homogeneity of social forms or motivati... ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/87 "2020-01-29T22:59:34Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Example of impersonal discussion: Me considering what he said as BS isn’t taking it personally. Him having multiple posts ascribing certain judgements of my moral character because of this topic _is_. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/88 "2020-01-30T00:01:25Z")
> [@TimfromNapa](#): > > Yes, the Aztec Empire was part of the continuum of empires in that region. However, a least they were engaged in conflict in their own neighborhood and on pretty even terms with their adversaries. Oh, and they did not attempt to completely annihilate the cultures of their foes. cite? Alternatively, the subjugated peoples co-operated (to their ultimate disadvantage) with the Spanish in the overthrow of the vicious, exploitative, genocidal Aztec empire. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > This motif crops up from time to time in discussions I read and it got me wondering, whilst there are instances of theft from native populations due to unequal treaties, how is it theft if the empire in question was the government body and was responsible for the area it controlled? > Also, it’s not as if the resources of that area would not have been exploited by people in said country for the same purpose, so how is it any worse? It’s worth remembering that the empire of the English included England. Where the ruling class, to use their own language, regarded agricultural labourers as a separate race, and stole their land. > [@Author Unknown](#): > > The law locks up the man or woman > Who steals the goose off the common > But leaves the greater villain loose > Who steals the common from the goose. The period of ‘enclosures’ includes the period when the population of Britain doubled, importation of food was not possible due to war and revolution, and there was literally not enough to eat for 50 years. The rich got richer by charging extortion rates for food grown on the land they had annexed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/89 "2020-01-30T00:20:21Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > If I break into someone’s house, kill them, and then leave with the TV it’s not actually theft because dead people can’t own things. If they stole the TV from the previous owners, who they also killed, it’s not quite as immoral as your version. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/90 "2020-01-30T00:26:26Z")
> [@](#): > > **Melbourne** > It’s worth remembering that the empire of the English included England. Where the ruling class, to use their own language, regarded agricultural labourers as a separate race, and stole their land. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. > [@](#): > > The period of ‘enclosures’ includes the period when the population of Britain doubled, importation of food was not possible due to war and revolution, and there was literally not enough to eat for 50 years. The rich got richer by charging extortion rates for food grown on the land they had annexed. The corn laws and navigation acts were all based on the predominant economic theory of Merchantilism of where there is a finite amount of resources in the world. Unless of course you’re refering to something else _which requires a citation._ ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/91 "2020-01-30T05:11:24Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You really believe that BS don’t you? I’ts not “BS”, and yes, I do. > [@](#): > > Have a read of this, and get back to me, thanks. I’m sorry, what does some rich man’s toy, that failed at any industrially useful work, have to do with this? Oh, right, because it led to Newcomen? You might have just answered “Yes” when I asked if you subscribed to the March of Progress nonsense, would have saved you a lot of typing. Steam Engine alone =/= Industrial Revolution. > [@](#): > > No it’s not, I’ve not blamed the Native Americans for anything Yes, you have. I get that you don’t see that you have, but you very much have. > [@](#): > > Fair enough, then they were not background actors in their own circumstances. This is hardly a startling discovery. If you hold me up at gunpoint and force me to type my own PIN at the ATM, I’m also a “background actor” in my own robbery… > [@](#): > > So you’re asking for a Utopian ideal No, I’m asking that we have some sort of truth in labeling for history. I’m not saying history didn’t happen. I’m saying we shouldn’t paper over what Empire actually is by avoiding calling rapine “rapine”. > [@](#): > > Garbage, Barbados became depopulated “Became depopulated”, gosh, you really love the passive voice. So you’re claiming it was all disease and Spanish slave raids had nothing to do with it? Or are you \*really \*going to make the disingenuous argument that because it wasn’t the English that did the raiding, but they did the settling, that somehow absolves Empire of theft? > [@](#): > > Emphasis on _some_. “Some” is enough. > [@](#): > > How can they “rob” them if nobody is left alive in that particular area? Make up your mind. “Some” is not “nobody”. > [@](#): > > Lol what? What argument did I have ‘demolished’ Years ago? I don’t have an argument :dubious: Please. Everyone can see your posts. And previous threads. > [@](#): > > I’m exploring the concept through discussion, of which you are taking highly personally. > No need for me to try when it’s blatantly obvious you are. Like I said - obvious bullshit is obvious. When you don’t have facts on your side, go for the _ad hominem_. Never mind that it’s a clear sign you don’t actually have a leg to stand on. It’s all you have now. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/92 "2020-01-30T05:17:31Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Me considering what he said as BS isn’t taking it personally. Him having multiple posts ascribing certain judgements of my moral character because of this topic _is_. I’ve made exactly zero posts of judgement of \*your \*moral character. Unless you care to cite where I have? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/93 "2020-01-30T06:27:49Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I don’t like the answer because it’s not that simple, and you know it. Yes, I do know it. That’s why I’m saying you’re wrong. There were no areas anywhere in the Americas or in Australia or in New Zealand that were devoid of native populations when the Europeans arrived. So anyone claiming otherwise is wrong. There were some islands that were uninhabited when Europeans arrived. Places like Bermuda, Cape Verde, and Mauritius. I have no problem with the discoverers claiming ownership of these places. They were uninhabited and therefore not stolen. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/94 "2020-01-30T09:29:28Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. > [@N Kent](#): > > “thou shall not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn” is divine law, figuratively signifying, that the poorer race of people, who are instruments, by which he earth is cultivated, ought to enjoy a reasonable portion of its produce I am not a historian: I don’t know why you think that posting the observation that the English ruling class used such language is an extraordinary claim. > [@Ruggles](#): > > A man must always live by his work, and his wages must be at least sufficient to maintain him: they must even upon most occasions, otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen would not be left beyond the first generation > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The corn laws and navigation acts were all based on the predominant economic theory of Merchantilism of where there is a finite amount of resources in the world. Unless of course you’re refering to something else _which requires a citation._ What kind of citation? In the 18th century, the population doubled: the area under cultivation did not. Do all such observations require citations? We aren’t in GC: is there a particular reason to require a citation for this point? (Doesn’t matter anyway: I thought it was an interesting observation, but you can take it or leave it.) ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/95 "2020-01-30T09:47:06Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > If I break into someone’s house, kill them, and then leave with the TV it’s not actually theft because dead people can’t own things. IANAL, but it would seem it was the property of _someone_ who isn’t you (probably the estate of the decadents?) so it’s still stealing. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/96 "2020-01-30T09:55:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, not at all. The Aztecs had an empire. They stole land from other people. It was no different than when the Spanish stole land from the Aztecs. Gotta admire the Aztecs. They murdered, raped, and pillaged with the greed and ferocity of white men. That’s why we now consider them to have been an ‘advanced culture’. ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/97 "2020-01-30T15:49:23Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But smallpox wasn’t by design, that was merely by contact. Like Americans did ti Native Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/98 "2020-01-30T16:37:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 'It wasn’t theft, Officer! Yes, I moved into this house, burned half its contents, and shipped most of the rest off across the ocean; but it’s not theft because the guys living there had stolen the house from the previous tenant and killed them all, But they had had stolen the house from someone else, who had also stolen the house. Even better, I built a brand new house with all the modern conveniences including a swimming pool which I let the surviving previous tenets clean for me. So it worked out well for them too. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/99 "2020-01-30T21:05:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ve made exactly zero posts of judgement of \*your \*moral character. Unless you care to cite where I have? How about we start with the ‘Rah rah imperialism’ ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/100 "2020-01-30T21:22:19Z")
> [@](#): > > **MrDibble** > I’ts not “BS”, and yes, I do. That’s just pathetic then. > [@](#): > > I’m sorry, what does some rich man’s toy, that failed at any industrially useful work, have to do with this? Oh, right, because it led to Newcomen? Nope, you’re saying that people only invented things for financial gain, whereas people invented things because they were _interested_ in those fields. Not everything is driven by a profit motive. > [@](#): > > You might have just answered “Yes” when I asked if you subscribed to the March of Progress nonsense, would have saved you a lot of typing. But I don’t subscribe to that, stop trying to ascribe my intentions to fit your position. > [@](#): > > Steam Engine alone =/= Industrial Revolution. Never said that, but it wasn’t all done in the name of a financial motive. > [@](#): > > Yes, you have. I get that you don’t see that you have, but you very much have. No I haven’t, giving them agency and not relegating them to something akin to a background character isn’t blaming them. > [@](#): > > If you hold me up at gunpoint and force me to type my own PIN at the ATM, I’m also a “background actor” in my own robbery… No, but if I take your gun and then proceed to rob in turn then it’s hardly a background character. > [@](#): > > No, I’m asking that we have some sort of truth in labeling for history. Truth bordering on a utopian ideal. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying history didn’t happen. I’m saying we shouldn’t paper over what Empire actually is by avoiding calling rapine “rapine”. I’ve not denied that happened. > [@](#): > > So you’re claiming it was all disease and Spanish slave raids had nothing to do with it? That’s what you’re insinuating, I took those circumstances as a given and focused on the subsequent colonisation. > [@](#): > > Or are you really going to make the disingenuous argument that because it wasn’t the English that did the raiding, but they did the settling, that somehow absolves Empire of theft? Nope, it’s an example of how an empire _didn’t_ do theft, and the crux of my discussion was _‘is all empire based on theft’_ > [@](#): > > “Some” is enough. We’re discussing _all_ > [@](#): > > Please. Everyone can see your posts. And previous threads. Well, enlighten me. Which ‘Argument’ Was demolished? > [@](#): > > Like I said - obvious bullshit is obvious. When you don’t have facts on your side, go for the ad hominem. Never mind that it’s a clear sign you don’t actually have a leg to stand on. It’s all you have now. I do have facts on my side. You’re getting all upset obviously because you’re from South Africa and have experienced the taking away of land from Black South Africans and its manifesting itself in this thread. I can appreciate that. I don’t need to ad hominem anything but I’ll always respond to someone personally attacking me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990.md?page=6)