# Empire equals theft, how? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990 "2020-01-26T14:06:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/121 "2020-02-02T09:13:47Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > How about the Maori Land Court which was established in 1865? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …what about it? …I don’t know if Ryan is planning on returning to this random question they asked me, so I thought I’d provide a bit more context. > [@The New Zealand Wars Website](#): > > As Māori throughout New Zealand returned to their villages and cultivations in order to once again secure themselves socially and, more critically, economically, the government embarked upon its vigorous legislative programme to change the nature of Māori land holdings. > > After the battle in 1863, the land was confiscated. > Māori land was to be changed from communal title – owned by everyone – to individual title – owned by one person. ‘One-person’ ownership meant that land could be more readily sold, which was the government’s intention. > > The change in title was made possible through legislation – the Native Lands Act 1862. This Act started the long process of converting Māori customary from communal title to individual title. Land could then be traded by Māori as if it were a commodity, or so the government said. > > This Act was amended in 1865, three years later, by introducing a Native Land Court which would function for a century or more, earning the nickname **‘engine of destruction’.** Māori generally resented the existence of the Court and tried hard to boycott its operations. [http://newzealandwars.co.nz/wars-without-end/the-native-land-court/](http://newzealandwars.co.nz/wars-without-end/the-native-land-court/) The Maori Land Court was originally used as an instrument by the Crown to literally steal land from Maori. Maori gave it the nickname “engine of destruction.” So I’m not sure how Ryan thought that this was going to help his case. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/122 "2020-02-02T14:19:16Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I don’t know if Ryan is planning on returning to this random question they asked me, so I thought I’d provide a bit more context. > > [The Native Land Court](http://newzealandwars.co.nz/wars-without-end/the-native-land-court/) > > The Maori Land Court was originally used as an instrument by the Crown to literally steal land from Maori. Maori gave it the nickname “engine of destruction.” \*\* So I’m not sure how Ryan thought that this was going to help his case.\*\* Ryan was asking a question because Ryan knew you were Maori and wanted your opinion on it. The reason I raised it was that there was conflict between the metropole and the periphery between rights for natives and the settlers wanting to remove or hinder those rights. > [@](#): > > **Acsenray** > Ryan, do you intend to keep arguing through non sequiturs? I’m not arguing anything. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/123 "2020-02-02T17:32:05Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Why are you acting so immature to a simple question? It was the same question for _different scenarios_ I wanted to explore the nuance. I’m not acting immature and you’re not asking a simple question. You’re asking the same simple question over and over and over again. You appear to be having difficulty understanding this answer, so I’m answering it in increasingly simplistic terms. You are showing no evidence of wanting to explore the nuances of imperialism. Instead, you want to deny the central fact of imperialism. Until you are able to accept that central fact, there’s no room for a discussion of the details around it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/124 "2020-02-02T19:15:59Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Ryan was asking a question because Ryan knew you were Maori and wanted your opinion on it. …the question wasn’t “whats your opinion on the Maori Land Court.” The question was “How about the Maori Land Court which was established in 1865?” That question was in response to me assuring you that yes, we “could tell you plenty about how empire equals theft.” I think its quite clear you were not asking me that question just to find out my opinion on it. > [@](#): > > The reason I raised it was that there was conflict between the metropole and the periphery between rights for natives and the settlers wanting to remove or hinder those rights. Why I do believe you’ve cracked the case! There was conflict! I never knew! Thanks for explaining that to me. We can end the thread now. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/125 "2020-02-02T23:00:52Z")
> [@](#): > > **Banquet Bear** > …the question wasn’t “whats your opinion on the Maori Land Court.” The question was “How about the Maori Land Court which was established in 1865?” That question was in response to me assuring you that yes, we “could tell you plenty about how empire equals theft.” I think its quite clear you were not asking me that question just to find out my opinion on it. I didn’t know you were a mind reader, in our vernacular, the phrasing is in the form of a question, not a statement of fact. > [@](#): > > Why I do believe you’ve cracked the case! There was conflict! I never knew! Thanks for explaining that to me. We can end the thread now. But the crux of the argument is that not all empires are based on theft, e.g how about the Holy Roman Empire? > [@](#): > > **Little Nemo** > I’m not acting immature and you’re not asking a simple question. No, you’re acting immature, there was no need for a tangent like that. > [@](#): > > You’re asking the same simple question over and over and over again. You appear to be having difficulty understanding this answer, so I’m answering it in increasingly simplistic terms. And I explained to you that I was asking a similar question for a different circumstance, thanks for the condescension towards the latter half of the paragraph. > [@](#): > > You are showing no evidence of wanting to explore the nuances of imperialism. Yes I am, hence the hypotheticals and \*asking of questions. \* > [@](#): > > Instead, you want to deny the central fact of imperialism. Until you are able to accept that central fact, there’s no room for a discussion of the details around it. Again, like MrDibble, you’re ascribing intentions of mine around your own preconceptions of me, probably as a result of me and MrDibble arguing. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/126 "2020-02-02T23:39:52Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I didn’t know you were a mind reader, in our vernacular, the phrasing is in the form of a question, not a statement of fact. …no I’m not a mind reader. So when you ask a question like “How about the Maori Land Court which was established in 1865?” and I ask you for clarification **then you ignored it** don’t be surprised if I make presumptions about your motives. > [@](#): > > But the crux of the argument is that not all empires are based on theft, e.g how about the Holy Roman Empire? Another “how about it” question. You’ve done it again. This is your thread. You make the case. You answer the question. How about the Holy Roman Empire? How about the Maori Land Court? How do either of these questions make the case that “not all empires are based on theft?” And how does the assertion “not all empires are based on theft” square up with your OP which was this? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > This motif crops up from time to time in discussions I read and it got me wondering, whilst there are instances of theft from native populations due to unequal treaties,\*\* how is it theft if the empire in question was the government body and was responsible for the area it controlled?\*\* > Also, it’s not as if the resources of that area would not have been exploited by people in said country for the same purpose, so how is it any worse? Can you make up your mind what it is that you want to debate? How is it wrong to characterise l[and confiscations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_land-confiscations) that were sanctioned by the government body that was responsible for the area it controlled as theft? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/127 "2020-02-03T00:23:16Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But the crux of the argument is that not all empires are based on theft, e.g how about the Holy Roman Empire? Howabout the [Holy Roman Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Slav_Rising)? Theft by the stronger over the weaker is inherent to pre-modern society generally and empire-building is just the most grandiose version. It’s not much different than some armed thug demanding the local peasants bring him five turnips every day in return for “protection” and starting to assert fancy titles like ‘Lord of Turnipville’. You cannot escape the concept. You can argue over relevance and impact to the modern world( I’d say there is quite a bit ). You can get all pedantic about different meanings of “theft.” But you can’t really argue the facts. Empires were built substantially on theft, sometimes legalistic, sometimes through trickery, most often through simple violence. And water is wet. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/128 "2020-02-03T01:18:53Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No, you’re acting immature, there was no need for a tangent like that. Yes, you should start repeating your personal attacks in this thread. Because repeating your questions has been working so well for you. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/129 "2020-02-03T22:11:17Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Why are you acting so immature to a simple question? On a hectic afternoon, seeing the fig leaf of “acting immature” (as if you were attacking the post) got a pass on a day with a lot of activity at my house, but doubling down on it > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > No, you’re acting immature, there was no need for a tangent like that. strips away the fig leaf, placing this post and the one that follows it into the realm of personal insult. This is a Warning to avoid such actions in the future. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/130 "2020-02-03T22:58:05Z")
> [@](#): > > **Banquet Bear** > …no I’m not a mind reader. So when you ask a question like “How about the Maori Land Court which was established in 1865?” and I ask you for clarification then you ignored it don’t be surprised if I make presumptions about your motives. But I didn’t intentionally ignore it. You could have asked if that was my intention. > [@](#): > > Another “how about it” question. You’ve done it again. This is your thread. You make the case. You answer the question. How about the Holy Roman Empire? How about the Maori Land Court? How do either of these questions make the case that “not all empires are based on theft?” > > And how does the assertion “not all empires are based on theft” square up with your OP which was this? Because there seems to be differing hues of Imperialism in different era which are different from the one practicsed in North America or Oceania. > [@](#): > > **Little Nemo** > Because repeating your questions has been working so well for you. Citing different circumstances is not repeating the question. > [@](#): > > **Tamerlane** > > How about the Holy Roman Empire? > > Theft by the stronger over the weaker is inherent to pre-modern society generally and empire-building is just the most grandiose version. It’s not much different than some armed thug demanding the local peasants bring him five turnips every day in return for “protection” and starting to assert fancy titles like ‘Lord of Turnipville’. You cannot escape the concept. You can argue over relevance and impact to the modern world( I’d say there is quite a bit ). You can get all pedantic about different meanings of “theft.” But you can’t really argue the facts. Thanks **Tamerlane** for the explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/131 "2020-02-03T23:46:46Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Citing different circumstances is not repeating the question. But you were not citing different circumstances. I made the point that in all of the circumstances you gave, the key factor of somebody taking something that belonged to somebody else was present and that’s what made it theft. The various details which you added to that basic situation were irrelevant because the theft was in the basic situation and not in the details. The only exception was when you mentioned taking over an uninhabited island and in that case, I agreed it was not theft. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2020, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/132 "2020-02-03T23:51:23Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > But I didn’t intentionally ignore it. You could have asked if that was my intention. …it was ignored. Intentionally or not: if you choose not to elaborate that isn’t my problem. > [@](#): > > Because there seems to be differing hues of Imperialism in different era which are different from the one practicsed in North America or Oceania. How do either of these questions make the case that “not all empires are based on theft?” And how does the assertion “not all empires are based on theft” square up with your OP which was this? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/133 "2020-02-04T09:18:59Z")
> [@](#): > > **Banquet Bear** > …it was ignored. Intentionally or not: if you choose not to elaborate that isn’t my problem. It wasn’t ignored deliberately and I didn’t choose _to not_ elaborate > [@](#): > > How do either of these questions make the case that “not all empires are based on theft?” Because alot of it seems to be based on moral relativism, and doesn’t give room for law to evolve. > [@](#): > > And how does the assertion “not all empires are based on theft” square up with your OP which was this? I tend to think lines of communication were more precarious and therefore it was more of a pressing issue that there be ways to hold territory to guarantee the investment that the imperial government was making. > [@](#): > > **Little Nemo** > But you were not citing different circumstances. Yes it was. I asked you about a scenario where europeans and natives were in a state of war. > [@](#): > > I made the point that in all of the circumstances you gave, the key factor of somebody taking something that belonged to somebody else was present and that’s what made it theft. The various details which you added to that basic situation were irrelevant because the theft was in the basic situation and not in the details. So why couldn’t you have explained it this way instead of trying to embarrass me for even asking the question? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/134 "2020-02-04T09:49:31Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > It wasn’t ignored deliberately and I didn’t choose _to not_ elaborate …thanks for conceding I didn’t do anything wrong. > [@](#): > > Because alot of it seems to be based on moral relativism, and doesn’t give room for law to evolve. A lot of _what_? The Maori Land Courts have evolved. They are a very different thing than what they were over 100 years ago. But what they evolved into _doesn’t matter_. The Courts were an instrument used by the Crown to facilitate theft of Maori Land. Do you disagree with that statement? > [@](#): > > I tend to think lines of communication were more precarious and therefore it was more of a pressing issue that there be ways to hold territory to guarantee the investment that the imperial government was making. So it doesn’t square up with the OP at all. Have you abandoned the OP? What you said: > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > This motif crops up from time to time in discussions I read and it got me wondering, whilst there are instances of theft from native populations due to unequal treaties,\*\* how is it theft if the empire in question was the government body and was responsible for the area it controlled?\*\* > Also, it’s not as if the resources of that area would not have been exploited by people in said country for the same purpose, so how is it any worse? How is it wrong to characterise [land confiscations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_land-confiscations) that were sanctioned by the government body that was responsible for the area it controlled as theft? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/135 "2020-02-04T18:15:19Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So why couldn’t you have explained it this way instead of trying to embarrass me for even asking the question? We’ve tried explaining it to you a number of different ways. In this thread and in the previous threads where you keep asking the same question. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/136 "2020-02-04T23:19:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We’ve tried explaining it to you a number of different ways. In this thread and in the previous threads where you keep asking the same question. One of those previous threads was from **2009** ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2020, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/137 "2020-02-04T23:29:15Z")
> [@](#): > > **Banquet Bear** > …thanks for conceding I didn’t do anything wrong. That would be to assume I had anything to concede in the first place. > [@](#): > > A lot of what? The Maori Land Courts have evolved. They are a very different thing than what they were over 100 years ago. But what they evolved into doesn’t matter. The Courts were an instrument used by the Crown to facilitate theft of Maori Land. Do you disagree with that statement? On what basis were the Maori Land Courts set up? Didn’t individual Maoris gain legal rights which were previously vested in their Chiefs? \>How is it wrong to characterise land confiscations that were sanctioned by the government body that was responsible for the area it controlled as theft? It’s not wrong, but it wasn’t the defining characteristic or modus operandi of that government. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2020, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/138 "2020-02-05T00:01:16Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > That would be to assume I had anything to concede in the first place. …concession accepted. > [@](#): > > On what basis were the Maori Land Courts set up? They were set up to steal land from Maori. > [@](#): > > Didn’t individual Maoris gain legal rights which were previously vested in their Chiefs? I don’t know what propaganda you are reading. But in general land rights (and I’m gonna assume you were talking about land rights and that this isn’t just another non-sequitur) wasn’t vested in the Chiefs. It was communal. That was taken away from Maori then used as a basis to confiscate the land. > [@](#): > > \>How is it wrong to characterise land confiscations that were sanctioned by the government body that was responsible for the area it controlled as theft? > > It’s not wrong, but **it wasn’t the defining characteristic or modus operandi of that government**. If its “not wrong” then there is nothing left to debate. You didn’t argue in the OP that it had to be the “defining characteristic or modus operandi of that government”. You are just shifting the goalposts yet again. You asked in the OP “how is it theft if the empire in question was the government body and was responsible for the area it controlled?” You’ve just conceded that it was. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2020, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/139 "2020-02-05T01:05:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We’ve tried explaining it to you a number of different ways. In this thread and in the previous threads where you keep asking the same question. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > One of those previous threads was from **2009** Is that supposed to be an excuse? I point out you’ve asked the same question a lot and you say you’ve only been asking it for nine years? Because most people will tell you that asking the same question for nine years is a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990/140 "2020-02-07T19:28:33Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > “how is it theft if the empire in question was the government body and was responsible for the area it controlled?” > > Sorry to be repetitious, but by what authority did your ‘empire’ become responsible for the area? 😃 That’s exactly as [in the _Gandhi_ movie](https://youtu.be/CZVsWzIb6Vk): Clueless British twit: “My dear sir, India _is_ British. We’re hardly an alien power.” All the other British present: “…” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-equals-theft-how/846990.md?page=8)