# Empire State Bldg shooting - ALL bystanders wounded by police - Why are police such terrible shots? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 26, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717 "2012-08-26T15:18:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/41 "2012-08-27T12:17:11Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > My understanding is a majority of the nine bystanders hit were hit by fragments thrown off when the bullets hit the large planters in the area. I think one woman was directly shot in the calf from a stray bullet, so I don’t know that we have a full reconstruction of this event sufficient to make any opinions on how much anyone may or may not have fucked things up. Could some of these be through & throughs? I can see a ricochet happening easily, as the street is a canyon of stone and concrete there. I’m not saying that anybody was a bad shot. I’m just saying that I could see where bullets & fragments could easily pinball down 34th until their energy was spent. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/42 "2012-08-27T13:14:52Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Yeah, I know of a guy that prevented a crime in a Home Depot parking lot by using his gun to give directions. The statistics are misleading. Clearly, zillions of crimes are being prevented simply by having guns in homes. The great thing is that the prevention works so well that it helps keep Japan safe. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/43 "2012-08-27T13:43:16Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Why haven’t you been appointed NYC Police Commissioner? Since you’re able to determine exactly the specifics of what happened before any of that has been released to the public and immediately know the appropriate cause of action I really think you’ve missed your calling in life. Because then he’d have the major breathing down his neck! And he told those two loose cannons to wait for backup, God damn it! ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/44 "2012-08-27T13:58:12Z")
A planter is not cover. Life is not an action movie. After about 3 rounds, your “cover” is reduced to broken bits of pottery on the ground, and a slowly collapsing pile of dirt. It sucks, and the police officers in this situation were put in a bad situation. They are probably pretty messed up about it… the only officer I know says that other cops she has dealt with who have shot suspects are usually pretty torn up about it after the fact. They are, after all, human beings. But at least we have folks clamoring to call them reckless and wish them in jail for doing their thankless job. That’s always nice. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/45 "2012-08-27T14:01:29Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > But at that point they had no way of knowing what he had in mind. Plus he did pull his gun after sighting the officers. That in itself is a threat. I agree. But I wanted to point out that this wasn’t a mass shooting. It was one guy trying to get away with killing his coworker. > [@msmith537](#): > > Because then he’d have the major breathing down his neck! > > And he told those two loose cannons to wait for backup, God damn it! Don’t forget the cost of replacing the bulb in the Bat Signal. What is that, like a million-watt bulb? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/46 "2012-08-27T14:01:29Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > They had a choice. > > [ol] > [li]Fire into a bunch of innocent bystanders.[/li][li]Jump for cover.[/li][/ol] > > The guys that make choice 1 should seek a different line of work, just like firefighters that decide that running into a burning building is too dangerous should be working elsewhere. Do you realize that firefighters often decide that running into a burning building is too dangerous? Pretty much the first thing they decide when they show up at a call. BTW did not know that [list] feature. Thanks for that. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/47 "2012-08-27T14:20:04Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Not really. The guy shot his target and then put the gun away and tried to leave the scene. The police followed him and he pulled out his gun. I don’t blame them for shooting an armed suspect, but he wasn’t going to kill anyone else. Obviously true. I mean, the fact that 90 minutes before his death, he dropped off the keys to his apartment saying “[I’m not going to be back](http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/maniac-gave-back-keys-apt-empire-state-building-slaying-article-1.1145049)” suggests that he wasn’t going to do anything else with his day. Maybe he was going to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge, or find a nice quiet corner to blow his brains out. Or, maybe he gets on a subway car and kills a bunch more people. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/48 "2012-08-27T14:24:51Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Obviously true. I mean, the fact that 90 minutes before his death, he dropped off the keys to his apartment saying “[I’m not going to be back](http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/maniac-gave-back-keys-apt-empire-state-building-slaying-article-1.1145049)” suggests that he wasn’t going to do anything else with his day. > > Maybe he was going to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge, or find a nice quiet corner to blow his brains out. Or, maybe he gets on a subway car and kills a bunch more people. Oh please. He knew he was going to get caught. You can pretend he was a mass shooter, but no evidence shows that he was. If a guy points a gun at a police officer, he should be shot. But let’s not pretend this was a terrorist attack. This was Law & Order, not 24. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/49 "2012-08-27T14:49:17Z")
I’m not entirely sure what you’re getting at. He didn’t drop his gun and stick around to get caught. He hid his gun and walked away. When confronted he didn’t give up, he drew his gun. I’m not the one asserting anything about his post-murder plans, that’s exclusively you. He didn’t plan to go home, so I figure he’s planning one of 3 things. Give up and go to jail, that didn’t happen. Off himself somewhere quiet, this is a possibility. Die in a shootout, this may have been his plan, or just the way things worked out. In any event, you can’t know that he didn’t plan on visiting his ex girlfriend, or his mother, or was just waiting to commit suicide by cop. When a guy murders someone in broad daylight on a Manhattan street, logical behavior is last thing you should depend on. ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/50 "2012-08-27T15:13:06Z")
[http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/nypds-choice-of-firearm-may-have-contributed-to-the-terrible-shooting/](http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/nypds-choice-of-firearm-may-have-contributed-to-the-terrible-shooting/) I saw this information presented elsewhere, but couldn’t find it again, so I did a search and came up with this. Basically, the firearms they use are required to have a very large trigger pull weight, which makes accurate shooting more difficult. This was instituted after some poorly trained cops were not practicing proper safety (finger off trigger until you want to fire), so they modified the firearms to prevent accidental firings. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/51 "2012-08-27T15:24:29Z")
> [@randomface](#): > > [http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/nypds-choice-of-firearm-may-have-contributed-to-the-terrible-shooting/](http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/nypds-choice-of-firearm-may-have-contributed-to-the-terrible-shooting/) > > I saw this information presented elsewhere, but couldn’t find it again, so I did a search and came up with this. > > Basically, the firearms they use are required to have a very large trigger pull weight, which makes accurate shooting more difficult. This was instituted after some poorly trained cops were not practicing proper safety (finger off trigger until you want to fire), so they modified the firearms to prevent accidental firings. I had heard about “NY triggers” but I did not know they were required for the NYPD. Never looked into it. That is plain stupid. It is very difficult to be accurate with a 12.5 lbs trigger pull. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/52 "2012-08-27T15:48:22Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > WAG-it might be that civilian shootings are more likely to be close range/one-on-one(mugging. home break-in) while police shootings are more likely to be out in public with numerous bystanders such as this one. Even a traffic stop on a suburban street could turn into a shooting with people in nearby houses. I think that even an off-the-cuff WAG is putting way too much effort into explaining an assertion that evidently has no actual evidence to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/53 "2012-08-27T16:05:57Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Do you realize that firefighters often decide that running into a burning building is too dangerous? Pretty much the first thing they decide when they show up at a call. > > BTW did not know that [list] feature. Thanks for that. It obviously doesn’t always sense to run into a burning building. I’m talking about people who never want to run into a burning building even if it is full of children. Do we honor the firefighters who ran the WTC or should we treat them as fools? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/54 "2012-08-27T16:39:14Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > A planter is not cover. Life is not an action movie. After about 3 rounds, your “cover” is reduced to broken bits of pottery on the ground, and a slowly collapsing pile of dirt. The planters were made out of concrete. Combined with the dirt they actually make excellent cover. > [@](#): > > However, the hollow-point bullets are more prone to fragment or ricochet when they hit a hard object such as the **concrete planters** used at the popular tourist attraction as security barriers against terrorist attacks, studies show. [http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/27/us-usa-shooting-empirestate-police-idUSBRE87Q04X20120827](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/27/us-usa-shooting-empirestate-police-idUSBRE87Q04X20120827) The shooter had five rounds in the magazine. As soon as he empties it, take an aimed shot to the head before he reloads instead of spraying the neighborhood with gunfire. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/55 "2012-08-27T16:41:15Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The planters were made out of concrete. Combined with the dirt they actually make excellent cover. > > [http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/27/us-usa-shooting-empirestate-police-idUSBRE87Q04X20120827](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/27/us-usa-shooting-empirestate-police-idUSBRE87Q04X20120827) > > The shooter had five rounds in the magazine. As soon as he empties it, take an aimed shot to the head before he reloads instead of spraying the neighborhood with gunfire. Aimed shots to the head are a terrible idea. Heads are small. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/56 "2012-08-27T16:51:52Z")
It’s my opinion that police get more target practice than the average guy, and are better trained than the average guy about how to avoid hitting innocent people. I’d much rather take my chances with a cop shooting a suspect than Joe Sixpack wearing an NRA t shirt. So if trained officers hit some innocent people in response to a gunman, my guess is there would have been many more innocent deaths if armed citizens had responded. It’s just my opinion, but if you had 100 incidents like this with police response and 100 incidents with armed citizen response, I would wager that the police responses would result in less collateral deaths. Of course we’re not about to conduct a controlled experiment so we’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/57 "2012-08-27T16:57:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It’s my opinion that police get more target practice than the average guy, and are better trained than the average guy about how to avoid hitting innocent people. I’d much rather take my chances with a cop shooting a suspect than Joe Sixpack wearing an NRA t shirt. So if trained officers hit some innocent people in response to a gunman, my guess is there would have been many more innocent deaths if armed citizens had responded. > > It’s just my opinion, but if you had 100 incidents like this with police response and 100 incidents with armed citizen response, I would wager that the police responses would result in less collateral deaths. Of course we’re not about to conduct a controlled experiment so we’ll never know. And that’s just your opinion. As has been pointed out, police officers don’t really shoot that much as part of their training. The police that do shoot a lot do so on their own time because they are also gun enthusiasts. Most people who choose to carry a concealed firearm are also gun enthusiasts. So since we’re throwing out unsubstantiated opinions, it’s my opinion that the average non-gun enthusiast police officer has signifiantly _less_ time shooting than the average ‘civilian’ gun enthusiast. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/58 "2012-08-27T17:20:22Z")
My opinion: the cops were reckless in their response; but then again, sometimes reckless is all you got. A cop spinning out a car in a high-speed chase is fairly reckless too (but not too often wreck-less). However, I see this incident as proof-positive that the arguments in the Theater Shooter, thread, about, “I would have assessed the situation and calmly shot the guy in the head,” is so much bullshit bravado. Cops end up wounding 9 people when firing at 1 guy who hadn’t started shooting at them yet, but some dork with an NRA membership and 40 hours at the range could handle the situation just fine. Yeah … I see that happening. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/59 "2012-08-27T17:25:58Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The shooter had five rounds in the magazine. As soon as he empties it, take an aimed shot to the head before … you collapse to the ground from multiple gunshot wounds. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717/60 "2012-08-27T17:33:48Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Aimed shots to the head are a terrible idea. Heads are small. Okay. A double tap to the chest instead of spraying 16 rounds. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-state-bldg-shooting-all-bystanders-wounded-by-police-why-are-police-such-terrible-shots/632717.md?page=4)