# Empire Strikes Back, why did everyone assume Obiwan lied? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 20, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279 "2014-01-20T15:43:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/21 "2014-01-20T22:19:13Z")
Well, yeah. But in Dune there weren’t entire ships dedicated to transporting the stuff across interstellar distances\*. \*Your ship might be completely crammed with Spice, true, but it gets into a much vaster Guild ship which does the actual interstellar travel with your ship in it. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/22 "2014-01-20T22:36:51Z")
Don’t they basically move space around the ship? Not much need for a pilot if the ship isn’t going anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/23 "2014-01-20T22:37:23Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Is there any evidence that Lucas himself knew what the word meant in Dutch? I always assumed he chose the name because it sounded like “invader.” Pretty much the same way he did with Darth Sidious, really. Vader kinda feels like “Vlad the Impaler,” too. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/24 "2014-01-20T22:43:36Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > I assumed Leia was speaking of her step-mother. Nitpick: _Adoptive_ mother. Though I can’t recall whether she knew she was adopted before Vader’s reveal. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/25 "2014-01-20T22:50:22Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > I assumed Leia was speaking of her step-mother. I don’t know what Leia called her, but I bet it was “Mom” or the equivalent. Leia never mentioned any other Organa siblings, and if “mom” was sad maybe it was because she couldn’t bear children from her own body. Or maybe Senator Organa was dead by then and she remembers her mother as a greiving widow. Remember in the first movie, when Padme is disguised as one of her handmaids, while the handmaid pretends to be her? They should have kept the maid as a minor character in the next two movies, and had her be the one who takes Leia to Alderaan to raise as her own. Alternatively, they could have named her Beru, and had a subplot about how she’s always bickering in the background with Padme’s chief of security, Captain Lars… ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/26 "2014-01-20T22:50:40Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > (rhetorical question) > > You know… spice isn’t that heavy. Or bulky. Why would you need an entire freighter dedicated to shipping the stuff? Don’t you remember the scene in _The Empire Strikes Back_ where Mr. Spock says, “The spice must flow.” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/27 "2014-01-20T22:51:21Z")
Search your feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/28 "2014-01-20T22:54:32Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > Don’t you remember the scene in _The Empire Strikes Back_ where Mr. Spock says, “The spice must flow.” You’re confused. “The Spice must flow,” is what people said in _1984_ before they went to Carousel. Mr. Spock’s famous line was, of course, “Hasta la vista, baby.” ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/29 "2014-01-20T22:54:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Search your feelings. Make a Perception check. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/30 "2014-01-20T22:56:27Z")
Rule One: The [del]Doctor[/del] Jedi Lies. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/31 "2014-01-20T23:16:14Z")
When ANH came out, Lucas didn’t know 1) there’d be a sequel, B) Vader would become a major character in sequels, III) Luke and Leia were siblings, and 4th) Vader was the bio dad for Luke and Leia. So, Lucas didn’t have Obiwan lie to Luke in ANH. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/32 "2014-01-20T23:27:55Z")
**Ranger Jeff** , your numbering is off. It should be 4), F), VII), and 8th). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/33 "2014-01-20T23:34:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Padme is disguised as one of her handmaids, while the handmaid pretends to be her? They should have kept the maid as a minor character in the next two movies, and had her be the one who takes Leia to Alderaan to raise as her own. _“Many Bothans died to bring us this information.”_ ---
**Author:** ![amorali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3e96dc/32.png) [@amorali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amorali)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/34 "2014-01-20T23:55:28Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > When ANH came out, Lucas didn’t know 1) there’d be a sequel, B) Vader would become a major character in sequels, III) Luke and Leia were siblings, and 4th) Vader was the bio dad for Luke and Leia. So, Lucas didn’t have Obiwan lie to Luke in ANH. Do you think they ever remembered kissing and got nauseous? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/35 "2014-01-21T00:04:09Z")
> [@amorali](#): > > Do you think they ever remembered kissing and got nauseous? Leia: Luke, now I feel very uncomfortable about that kiss we shared. Luke: (waves hand) We never kissed. You don’t remember a thing. Leia: What was I talking about? ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/36 "2014-01-21T00:05:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Remember in the first movie, when Padme is disguised as one of her handmaids, while the handmaid pretends to be her? They should have kept the maid as a minor character in the next two movies, and had her be the one who takes Leia to Alderaan to raise as her own. > > Alternatively, they could have named her Beru, and had a subplot about how she’s always bickering in the background with Padme’s chief of security, Captain Lars… Wasn’t that [Keira Knightley](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_characters#S)? I think her pay scale increased soon afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/37 "2014-01-21T00:10:04Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Watching the movie with someone who knew the reveal, but had not seen ANH or ESB before they had a different take on it. They assumed Anakin and Darth were two different characters, Obiwan told Luke the truth as he knew it, and Lukes unnamed mom cheated with Darth Vader before he was a machine man. And the fight where Vader killed Anakin was likely related to the baby daddy drama, with Obiwan probably in the dark. > > This makes a surprising amount of sense, so why did everyone in 1985 instantly assume Darth=Anakin? The meta reason is that it was at the end of the movie. A surpring revelation at the beginning of a movie or in the middle might turn out to be false (and thus drive the story in interesting ways), but a revelation at the end of a movie will be expected to be true by the audience. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/38 "2014-01-21T00:44:45Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > The meta reason is that it was at the end of the movie. A surpring revelation at the beginning of a movie or in the middle might turn out to be false (and thus drive the story in interesting ways), but a revelation at the end of a movie will be expected to be true by the audience. Also, Luke’s mom doesn’t really exist in the narrative of the first three movies. The only time she’s mentioned is when Luke as Leia about her mom in Jedi - before that, there’s not a single reference to Luke’s other parent, not even obliquely, in the entire trilogy. In most stories, if there’s a question about someone lying about a major plot point, the audience is going to assume that it’s one of the characters already on stage, and not some third party they’ve never heard of. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/39 "2014-01-21T01:18:55Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > The meta reason is that it was at the end of the movie. A surpring revelation at the beginning of a movie or in the middle might turn out to be false (and thus drive the story in interesting ways), but a revelation at the end of a movie will be expected to be true by the audience. Again the person assumed Vader was truthful, but he was NOT Anakin Skywalker, Vader claims to be Luke’s father but never claims to be Anakin. There idea was that Anakin and Vader were two different characters, and Vader killed Anakin. What I was wondering was why people in 1980 didn’t think: “Wow Vader not only killed Anakin, he also secretly fathered Luke with Anakin’s wife!” ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/40 "2014-01-21T02:14:43Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Again the person assumed Vader was truthful, but he was NOT Anakin Skywalker, Vader claims to be Luke’s father but never claims to be Anakin. > > There idea was that Anakin and Vader were two different characters, and Vader killed Anakin. > > What I was wondering was why people in 1980 didn’t think: > > “Wow Vader not only killed Anakin, he also secretly fathered Luke with Anakin’s wife!” Sorry about that. I misunderstood the question. Miller has a good point though - if Luke’s mother was a character in the movie (or even a character that Luke mentioned from time to time) then the idea that she had cheated on Anakin with Darth would be a dramatic surprise, but without that, there’s not much point to it (IMHO). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279.md?page=3)