# Empire Strikes Back, why did everyone assume Obiwan lied? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 20, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279 "2014-01-20T15:43:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/41 "2014-01-21T16:00:28Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Wasn’t that [Keira Knightley](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_characters#S)? I think her pay scale increased soon afterwards. It was, and yes, it did, esp. after “Pirates of the Caribbean”. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/42 "2014-01-21T17:12:38Z")
The funny thing is that it almost makes more sense than the canon. 1.Obiwan is baffled and feels like he made a tragic mistake after his student kills his best friend for a reason he doesn’t understand. 2.It explains the Emperor saying “son of Skywalker” and Vader’s all consuming obsession with finding Luke first, the Emperor doesn’t know Luke is Vader’s son, and Vader wants to make sure to find his son first before he gets killed. I wasn’t even born yet in 80, so I was kind of going yea your interpretation makes a lot of sense, wonder why no one else thought of it(well not many elses heh). ---
**Author:** ![BrianJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/54ee81/32.png) [@BrianJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrianJ)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/43 "2014-01-21T17:28:28Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Again the person assumed Vader was truthful, but he was NOT Anakin Skywalker, Vader claims to be Luke’s father but never claims to be Anakin. > > There idea was that Anakin and Vader were two different characters, and Vader killed Anakin. > > What I was wondering was why people in 1980 didn’t think: > > “Wow Vader not only killed Anakin, he also secretly fathered Luke with Anakin’s wife!” Just curious, was Anakin’s name even mentioned in the first three movies? Anyway, I assumed at the time that Obiwan did lie, and Vader was the father. ---
**Author:** ![edwards\_beard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@edwards\_beard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwards_beard)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/44 "2014-01-21T17:34:33Z")
> [@BrianJ](#): > > Just curious, was Anakin’s name even mentioned in the first three movies? > > Anyway, I assumed at the time that Obiwan did lie, and Vader was the father. Ben revealed the name on Dagobah in ROTJ and then Luke referred to the name to Vader when trying to turn him back. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/45 "2014-01-21T17:42:49Z")
> [@BrianJ](#): > > Just curious, was Anakin’s name even mentioned in the first three movies? A lot in RotJ, actually, and even to Vader’s face. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/46 "2014-01-21T17:52:39Z")
> [@BrianJ](#): > > Just curious, was Anakin’s name even mentioned in the first three movies? > > Anyway, I assumed at the time that Obiwan did lie, and Vader was the father. Anakin’s name is mentioned by Luke and Obiwan in the first movie when they talk about him in Obiwan’s house, Beru and Owen also talk about Luke’s father but not by name. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/47 "2014-01-21T18:23:02Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Seeing as Lucas came up with the name well before he decided Darth was Luke’s father, you are probably correct. From what I’ve read, he did deliberately choose the name Darth Vader because Vader meant father, but not with the original intention that he would actually be his biological father. I think it’s pretty clear in ANH that he didn’t have the whole Sith “Darth” title worked out, because of how Obiwan refers to him as Darth, rather than Vader. Though I guess that can be fan wanked as him perhaps only being willing to see him as the Sith he’s become. Anyway, I’ve read a few articles about it, I think one was a Cracked one, something about changes or reveals that could have been way better. I can’t access Cracked at work, so maybe someone else can find it. As I understand, his original story plan had a completely different conflict where Darth Vader wasn’t his biological dad but instead his aim was to become his mentor in the Dark Side, to figuratively become his “Dark Father” and then attempt to overthrow the Emperor. The whole biological father thing really is unnecessary, and it seems it was done largely because of the impact it would have. It worked well, but I think it ultimately hamstrung the narrative, which is why I think Jedi wasn’t as good, and why it quickly went downhill from there. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/48 "2014-01-21T19:39:36Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Anakin’s name is mentioned by Luke and Obiwan in the first movie when they talk about him in Obiwan’s house, Beru and Owen also talk about Luke’s father but not by name. When is Anakin’s name mentioned? Here’s the scene on [YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ_mjtTCdcg). Is this something Lucas added in later, like Greedo shooting first? What’s the fanwank on why Obi-Wan doesn’t remember R2? R2 seems to give a droid expression of surprise when “Ben” Kenobi reveals he’s Obi-Wan. Kenobi also says he hasn’t gone by the name Obi-Wan since before Luke was born, but I would think he didn’t start going by Ben until after taking Luke to Tatooine. Then again, I guess I shouldn’t expect coherence from Lucas. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/49 "2014-01-21T19:57:51Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > What’s the fanwank on why Obi-Wan doesn’t remember R2? IIRC, he says he doesn’t recall ever _owning_ a droid, which is technically true, which is the best kind of true. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/50 "2014-01-21T20:27:55Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > IIRC, he says he doesn’t recall ever _owning_ a droid, which is technically true, which is the best kind of true. Well, I guess that’s true–from a certain point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/51 "2014-01-21T20:29:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Is there any evidence that Lucas himself knew what the word meant in Dutch? I always assumed he chose the name because it sounded like “invader.” Pretty much the same way he did with Darth Sidious, really. > [@BigT](#): > > Seeing as Lucas came up with the name well before he decided Darth was Luke’s father, you are probably correct. > Darth Vader was Luke’s father only from the second rewrite of ESB on. If Lucas had known what he was going to do back in the first movie, he wouldn’t have needed to make Obi Wan a liar. Good points. Possibly someone told him (prior to that second rewrite) about the fact that “vader” means father in Dutch…and it got him thinking… Though Blaster Master’s remarks make sense, too: > [@](#): > > From what I’ve read, he did deliberately choose the name Darth Vader because Vader meant father, but not with the original intention that he would actually be his biological father. …As I understand, his original story plan had a completely different conflict where Darth Vader wasn’t his biological dad but instead his aim was to become his mentor in the Dark Side, to figuratively become his “Dark Father” and then attempt to overthrow the Emperor. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/52 "2014-01-21T21:44:16Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > What’s the fanwank on why Obi-Wan doesn’t remember R2? R2 seems to give a droid expression of surprise when “Ben” Kenobi reveals he’s Obi-Wan. I think the expresion on Obi Wan’s face suggests that he _does_ recognize R2, but is not reveling anything to Luke just yet. ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/53 "2014-01-21T23:27:21Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > I think the expresion on Obi Wan’s face suggests that he _does_ recognize R2, but is not reveling anything to Luke just yet. Which is why all he said was that he didn’t remember ever OWNING a droid. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/54 "2014-01-22T03:32:55Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > When is Anakin’s name mentioned? Here’s the scene on [YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ_mjtTCdcg). > > Is this something Lucas added in later, like Greedo shooting first?. I was kind of wondering the same thing. The first I can recall encountering the name “Anakin” was in an EU novel, when Han and Leia gave the name to their son. I’m unable to check now; I had the original, un-“improved” versions of the original trilogy on VHS, but those were stolen and I don’t have a VCR anyway. But yeah, I don’t recall every hearing him referred to as anything other than “your father” or “my father” or “his father”. ---
**Author:** ![weemart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f14d63/32.png) [@weemart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/weemart)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/55 "2014-01-22T03:59:15Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > When is Anakin’s name mentioned? Here’s the scene on [YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ_mjtTCdcg). > > Kenobi also says he hasn’t gone by the name Obi-Wan since before Luke was born, but I would think he didn’t start going by Ben until after taking Luke to Tatooine. > > Then again, I guess I shouldn’t expect coherence from Lucas. When SW:ANH was set Luke was a late teenager/early 20s. At the time of Luke;s birth Obi-Wan had gone through a very traumatic time. His best friend had turned to the darkside and all his other Jedi friends had been slain. Perhaps the trauma and time made him forget when exactly he was last called Obi-Wan. It seems certain it’s not long after the birth of Luke that he was last called by this name. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/56 "2014-01-22T04:41:59Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > I think the expresion on Obi Wan’s face suggests that he _does_ recognise R2, but is not reveling anything to Luke just yet. I think even within the stand alone EPIV, that is the message that is supposed to be conveyed to the audience. As for the OP. Throughout the movie, it has been made clear that Luke is Anakin’s son,by the Emperor and Vader too. Its quite clear from subtext. As it is, the real question should be, when/how did Vader find out that he was Darth Daddy/Deadbeat. He clearly knew sometime before the events of ESB. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/57 "2014-01-22T04:49:03Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > I think the expresion on Obi Wan’s face suggests that he _does_ recognize R2, but is not reveling anything to Luke just yet. Rewatching that scene, I really liked the cinematography of the way Alec Guiness pulls back his hood, looks directly at the camera, and says, “Well hello there!” It was like Lucas/the movie was saying, “Hey! Take this movie seriously!” He wasn’t speaking just to R2-D2, he was speaking to the audience (or at least the parents of the kids in the theater). It was a movie that was not only unlike anything anybody had ever seen, but that featured a cast of unknowns. The parents of all those kids were probably wondering what they were watching, and then the old, familiar Alec Guinness appeared and all was well. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/58 "2014-01-22T04:59:10Z")
Oh, droids are a minority and all the bad people buy and sell and kick them. The good guys are nice to them and treat them like real people. ---
**Author:** ![weemart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f14d63/32.png) [@weemart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/weemart)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/59 "2014-01-22T05:13:01Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > As it is, the real question should be, when/how did Vader find out that he was Darth Daddy/Deadbeat. He clearly knew sometime before the events of ESB. I think his moment of clarity came when he’s about to shoot Luke in ANH and says “The force is strong in this one”. Since to his knowledge all Jedi were dead he probably quickly came to the conclusion that Luke must be his son since the evidence of the first 3 films is that Jedi didn’t pro-create, at least not without permission. The first 3 films throw up a feeling that Jedi abstained from sexual relations, but when Anakin is 1st discovered Qui-Gon asked his mum who his father was which suggests that they did pro-create. So I’m guessing they’d need permission b4 doing so and Anakin hadn’t sought that permission b4 marrying and pro-creating with his wife (I forget her name lol). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279/60 "2014-01-22T15:57:56Z")
People strong in the Force procreate all the time. Most of them don’t become Jedis, though. > [@](#): > > Quoth **Death of Rats** : > > I think the expresion on Obi Wan’s face suggests that he does recognise R2, but is not reveling anything to Luke just yet. Similarly, he rolls his eyes when he hears Han talking about how many parsecs he made the Kessel run in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/empire-strikes-back-why-did-everyone-assume-obiwan-lied/679279.md?page=4)