# Employee up for a promotion reveals disturbing secret while drunk. What do you do? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 19, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289 "2010-09-19T15:07:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/81 "2010-09-20T21:23:37Z")
“And, if I haven’t made it clear ere now, I think the rambling precludes making Anne sales director or general manager.” Fair enough. If she’s not in a position where she has the ability to directly effect peoples jobs, I could understand keeping her on. Id be nervous about doing it, but I could understand it from a fairness perspective. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/82 "2010-09-20T21:28:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Skald, What if she got drunk and said she’d like to rob the safe? What if she said she wanted to swindle customers? Is there anything you would not be willing to overlook, or does being drunk excuse everything? > > ETA, and you think Katina should compound her liability by committing perjury? Seriously? What if the janitor overheard them? Should Katina take care of him, just to be safe. Perhaps cutting off his tongue so he can’t speak, and his extremities so he can’t gesture, and his eyelids so he can’t blink in code, would be sufficient. Yes, I should think so. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/83 "2010-09-20T21:28:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > You seem not to have read the entirety of the post you quoted,as **Peeta** addressed the very issue you bring up. > > **Peeta’s** premise is false. Everybody isn’t a racist. Everybody isn’t a bigot. I dislike the meme that they are. I do not harbor any racist feelings. I know lots of other people who do not. > > The kimnd of behavior decribed in the OP is not not typical and normal and cannot be overlooked. That woman displayed irrational and hostile thinking that cannot be concealed or separated from her judgement on people as customers, coworkers or employees. Reality doesn’t work like your hypotheticals. If she really has these feelings, then they will affect her work, period. It would be completely irresponsible to give her any power. > > Would you hire somebody who expressed those feelings in a job interview, yes or no? No, of course not. Nor would I hire someone who was drunk at a job interview. But I think reality is more complex than you think. I can imagine a person who was deeply indoctrinated in racist attitudes throughout his or her childhood, who consciously rejected those beliefs, and who discovered to his or her horror that seeds of them remained to be evoked by drink. Doesn’t mean she chooses to act on them when sober. Back in college, just before the riots following the acquittal of the policemen who assaulted Rodney King, I was dating a girl I’ll call Elizabeth. She was white. We got along swimmingly. But after the verdicts and violence that followed, she grew very distressed, and eventually she admitted to me that she was bothered by her own initial reaction to the news of the riots. Her first thought, she said guility, was that the rioters were expressing their basic, primal, TRIBAL nature. She knew this was racist; she knew it was wrong; and before the riots began she did not realize that she still believed that, though she had been raised to think just that way. People are complicated. > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > Sure Katina can. All she need do is not tell anyone what she heard. … > > IOW, all it means is that she may be called upon to commit perjury to protect her business. No biggie. 😛 I remind you whom you’re talking to, amigo. I’m pretty sure I’ve threatened to destroy Wales at least four times since Labor Day. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/84 "2010-09-20T21:33:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Skald, What if she got drunk and said she’d like to rob the safe? What if she said she wanted to swindle customers? Is there anything you would not be willing to overlook, or does being drunk excuse everything? I have not written that I’d be willing to OVERLOOK the drunken ramblings. Just that I don’t think they’re grounds for immediate firing. ETA: I’d not consider saying she wanted to rob the safe to be on the same order. As for swindling the customers – well, hell, she’s a car sales person, that’s her job. 🙂 > [@](#): > > ETA, and you think Katina should compound her liability by committing perjury? Seriously? What if the janitor overheard them? Should Katina take care of him, just to be safe. What janitor? Anne said this as Katina was dropping her cracker ass on the sofa in disgust, remember? I’m nto sure what you mean by taking care of the janitor anyway. Bribing? Sexual favors? Beating to death with a tire iron? ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/85 "2010-09-20T21:33:39Z")
“I can imagine a person who was deeply indoctrinated in racist attitudes throughout his or her childhood, who consciously rejected those beliefs, and who discovered to his or her horror that seeds of them remained to be evoked by drink.” I can too, but dont find it very convincing that it would be evoked in the way described, ie by explicit overt racist attitudes and talk about planning intentional acts. Your example of Elizabeth would be more what Id expect, ie general rejection and avoidance of overt stereotyping, but remnants of more subtle beliefs or possibly a blurted single statement. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/86 "2010-09-20T21:37:14Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > **Peeta’s** premise is false. Everybody isn’t a racist. Everybody isn’t a bigot. I dislike the meme that they are. I do not harbor any racist feelings. I know lots of other people who do not. > > > > The kimnd of behavior decribed in the OP is not not typical and normal and cannot be overlooked. That woman displayed irrational and hostile thinking that cannot be concealed or separated from her judgement on people as customers, coworkers or employees. Reality doesn’t work like your hypotheticals. If she really has these feelings, then they will affect her work, period. It would be completely irresponsible to give her any power. > > > > Would you hire somebody who expressed those feelings in a job interview, yes or no? > > No, of course not. Nor would I hire someone who was drunk at a job interview. > > But I think reality is more complex than you think. I can imagine a person who was deeply indoctrinated in racist attitudes throughout his or her childhood, who consciously rejected those beliefs, and who discovered to his or her horror that seeds of them remained to be evoked by drink. Doesn’t mean she chooses to act on them when sober. These are not “seeds” being expressed by this woman, this is full-blown, fully-realized bigotry. Funny you should say this, though, because I said almost exactly the same thing in the wake of the Mel Gibson “sugartits” incident. I was naive enough to think it might not have really been him. I was wrong. > [@](#): > > People are complicated. I don’t think the woman in your hypothetical is complicated. Would the woman you dated have gotten drunk and started saying “I hate niggers?” Being drunk is not an excuse. People who are not truly racist don’t do that shit. In vino veritas. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/87 "2010-09-20T21:40:03Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > …I’m nto sure what you mean by taking care of the janitor anyway. Bribing? Sexual favors? Beating to death with a tire iron? Silly me, I never even thought of bribing. I went straight for the “mutilating until communication is no longer possible” option behind Door Number 2. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/88 "2010-09-20T21:41:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > No, of course not. Nor would I hire someone who was drunk at a job interview. > > > > But I think reality is more complex than you think. I can imagine a person who was deeply indoctrinated in racist attitudes throughout his or her childhood, who consciously rejected those beliefs, and who discovered to his or her horror that seeds of them remained to be evoked by drink. Doesn’t mean she chooses to act on them when sober. > > These are not “seeds” being expressed by this woman, this is full-blown, fully-realized bigotry. > > Funny you should say this, thugh, because I said almost exactly the same thing in the wake of the Mel Gibson “sugartits” incident. I was naive enough to think it might not have really been him. I was wrong. > > > [@Skald](#): > > > > People are complicated. > > Would this woman have gotten drunk and started saying “I hate niggers?” > > Being drunk is not an excuse. People who are not truly racist don’t do that shit. In vino veritas. I don’t know what the sugartits incident is. I don’t believe _in vino veritas_, because it implies a simplicity to human behavior that I think it is not supported by the evidence. As to “Elizabeth” – I dunno. I was never around her while she was drunk. But I have been around other drunken people who behaved in ways quite unlike what I judge to be their true selves. Alcohol is not Wonder Woman’s magic lasso. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/89 "2010-09-20T21:42:26Z")
Her racist statements are abhorrent, but there is every indication that they have no affect on her job performance. If she keeps her views to herself, and treats all coworkers and customers with respect and dignity, there is no reason not to give her the promotion. IMO, you can’t (or shouldn’t) fire someone for their personal beliefs if they have no outward expression of them. If she ever gives the faintest indication of intolerance at work, or evidence is discovered that she has expressed these racist views publicly or in the workplace, then fire her ass. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/90 "2010-09-20T21:45:08Z")
People are not that complicated, and you can be sure that alcohol reveals what they really are. It lowers inhibitions, it does not implant feelings and opinions that they don’t really have. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/91 "2010-09-20T21:46:28Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Her racist statements are abhorrent, but there is every indication that they have no affect on her job performance. This is a convenient part of **Skald’s** hypothetical, but it is not actually believable to me as a realistic scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/92 "2010-09-20T21:46:37Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > > …I’m nto sure what you mean by taking care of the janitor anyway. Bribing? Sexual favors? Beating to death with a tire iron? > > Silly me, I never even thought of bribing. I went straight for the “mutilating until communication is no longer possible” option behind Door Number 2. You have much to learn before you can take a job at Evil Inc. Murder and mutilation are not the solution to every problem. Note: Above should not be taken as a disavowal of homicide and/or maiming. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/93 "2010-09-20T21:47:14Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Her racist statements are abhorrent, but there is every indication that they have no affect on her job performance. … Not really true, because you haven’t looked for indicators. It would be more accurate to state the negative – that you’ve seen no indicators of these attitudes affecting her behavior. That’s not to say you couldn’t find them if you started looking. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/94 "2010-09-20T21:48:22Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > > > Silly me, I never even thought of bribing. I went straight for the “mutilating until communication is no longer possible” option behind Door Number 2. > > You have much to learn before you can take a job at Evil Inc. Murder is not the solution to every problem. > > Note: Above should not be taken as a disavowal of murder. 😉 Clearly not. Hence, the mutilation. Is that not preferable? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/95 "2010-09-20T21:48:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > People are not that complicated, and you can be sure that alcohol reveals what they really are. It lowers inhibitions, it does not implant feelings and opinions that they don’t really have. How very Christian of you. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/96 "2010-09-20T21:51:30Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > > [@Skammer](#): > > > > Her racist statements are abhorrent, but there is every indication that they have no affect on her job performance. … > > Not really true, because you haven’t looked for indicators. It would be more accurate to state the negative – that you’ve seen no indicators of these attitudes affecting her behavior. That’s not to say you couldn’t find them if you started looking. Returning to my policy of arguing both sides of every argument… It’s implicit in the story that Katina is white, no? Assuming that, I can easily believe that she’s perhaps less sensitive to subtle racial discrimination than a black or hispanic person, just as men are often less aware of gender bias then women are. Also, since she’s two levels above Anne, and in a position that would not involve constant customer contact or constant contact with the sales staff, she may have missed stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/97 "2010-09-20T21:56:30Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > > [@Skammer](#): > > > > Her racist statements are abhorrent, but there is every indication that they have no affect on her job performance. … > > Not really true, because you haven’t looked for indicators. It would be more accurate to state the negative – that you’ve seen no indicators of these attitudes affecting her behavior. That’s not to say you couldn’t find them if you started looking. I’ll buy that. So I’d amend my recommendation to promote to a recommendation to conduct a review of Anne’s performance, possibly soliciting feedback from coworkers and former customers. Promote her as long as there is no evidence of intolerance in her performance. I would not hold a non-occupational, private, drunken conversation against her. Assuming she gets the promotion, I’d also remind her that is probably not appropriate for her to get drunk with coworkers who report to her. ---
**Author:** ![Peeta\_Mellark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Peeta\_Mellark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peeta_Mellark)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/98 "2010-09-20T22:32:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > **Peeta’s** premise is false. Everybody isn’t a racist. Everybody isn’t a bigot. I dislike the meme that they are. I do not harbor any racist feelings. I know lots of other people who do not. I don’t think everyone is necessarily racist, but the odds of someone being entirely free of any sort of bigotry are vanishingly small. It may be directed towards women, or atheists, or sex workers, or people with Down syndrome, or everyone who is missing their front teeth. Pretty much everyone on the planet has made blanket, negative assumptions about members of an identifiable group. It is only when they act on those negative assumptions that I think it should have an impact on their job. If she ever voiced those opinions at work, I’d consider that action towards creating a hostile environment and can her ass so fast her head would spin, FWIW. But drunkenly mumbling when she’s barely conscious and grief-stricken? That’s not in the same league. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/99 "2010-09-20T23:57:02Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > > [@jsgoddess](#): > > > > This person can no longer be trusted in any supervisory capacity. Katina can’t unhear it. She has information that makes her choices potentially very very damaging. > > > > **As for it not being a company event, if an event includes your boss? It’s a company event.** > > > > There’s nothing unethical about determining that someone is a danger to the ethics and bottom line of your company. Keeping her around is all downside. Firing is all upside. > > Was Mike’s funeral a company event? Presumably his family paid for it, but I’m sure, in this scenario, that Katina, Anne, and Katina’s father all attended. Yes. Any situation where you are in the company of your boss is grounds for the boss to learn unpleasant and fire-able things about you. Your boss is not your friend. The owner of the company cannot be so irresponsible as to hand over the ability to discriminate illegally to someone he or she knows from direct exposure to harbor racist and discriminatory intent and feelings. What Anne says she wants to do is plausible and within her power. She isn’t saying she wants to shoot Jews from space. She isn’t saying she wants to control black people with her mind. She’s suggesting a course of action that should could do and that is illegal. The buck would not stop with Anne if lawsuits started coming in. Katina cannot hide behind the secrecy of the initial comments, since for all she knows there was someone else there, or Anne told someone else about her comments to Katina, or Anne had been saying the same things to others at the event and those others assumed Katina was in earshot. Secrets have a big habit of not staying secret, especially when someone can’t hold their liquor. So, on the one side Katina might be able to benefit a racist who could take her entire company down (whee!), and on the other side Katina fires Anne and Anne, who is so good at her job, moves on and becomes someone else’s problem. There is no downside for Katina in firing Anne. To recap: If you say shit to your boss, you will probably get fired and then perhaps someone who isn’t an utter moron will get hired. Win-win. If you say stuff that exposes your boss to liability, you will get fired. This includes telling the boss how you plan to sexually harass your personal assistant, or confiding in your superior how you’ve been slipping ex-lax into the mochachinos. If you are a closet racist, don’t get drunk in public. If you have any big secrets, don’t get drunk in public. In general, don’t get drunk in public. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289/100 "2010-09-21T00:03:06Z")
> [@Peeta\_Mellark](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > **Peeta’s** premise is false. Everybody isn’t a racist. Everybody isn’t a bigot. I dislike the meme that they are. I do not harbor any racist feelings. I know lots of other people who do not. > > I don’t think everyone is necessarily racist, but the odds of someone being entirely free of any sort of bigotry are vanishingly small. I agree with you. However, there’s a rather huge difference between “I see differences between black people and me. I’m sometimes uncomfortable with those differences” and “I hate niggers. Blacks should be slaves. Jews make me want to vomit.” The former is really common. The latter… isn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/employee-up-for-a-promotion-reveals-disturbing-secret-while-drunk-what-do-you-do/554289.md?page=6)