# "Encouraging and furthering the abuses"? Fuck you! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 13, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634 "2002-11-13T22:03:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/1 "2002-11-13T22:03:59Z")
[Ugh!](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,70149,00.html) Jesus Christ in velvet hotpants! More litigious bullshit. WTF is going on in the world today? These two slimeball money grubbing soul eaters need to be ripped limb from limb in the public square! \*\*CORPORATIONS: DO NOT SETTLE ON THIS, STAND UP TO THESE BOTTOM FEEDERS!\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/2 "2002-11-13T22:08:13Z")
Ayn Rand in a body condom! What’s the buzz here? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/3 "2002-11-13T22:25:30Z")
It’s difficult to comment on the suit with the limited amount of information in the article. The crux of it is the argument that “[The defendants’] conduct was so integrally connected to the abuses that apartheid would not have occurred in the same way without their participation.” If the analogy between this case and the suit against corporations that did business with the Third Reich is solid (eg; direct benefits from government abuses, on par with manufactories making use of economical prison-camp labour provided by the Nazis,) then the case is perfectly valid and the offenders should have the pants sued off them. “When in Rome…” just doesn’t hold up. If the substance of the case is that the involved companies had the moral obligation to voluntarily impose sanctions against South Africa in order to effect political change, while I may agree with this from an ethical point-of-view, it certainly doesn’t have any legal merit and the plaintiffs are out-of-luck. Somehow, I doubt that this is the case. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/4 "2002-11-13T22:42:10Z")
Well one thing is crystal clear, Hausfeld is a gold digger. I find it hard to believe he would be involved for moral reasons. What the companies were doing was legal, perhaps not a good idea, but again, legal. Keep in mind how image conscious these companies are, and bad PR is something they strive to avoid like the plague. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/5 "2002-11-14T00:17:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*Well one thing is crystal clear, Hausfeld is a gold digger. I find it hard to believe he would be involved for moral reasons. What the companies were doing was legal, perhaps not a good idea, but again, legal. Keep in mind how image conscious these companies are, and bad PR is something they strive to avoid like the plague. \*\* If they want to avoid bad PR, then perhaps they should keep their greedy mitts out of countries where such egregrious violations of human rights occur. So what if it was legal? It was wrong. And your charicterization of Hausfield is bullshit: > [@](#): > > Unlike Fagen, Hausfeld said his apartheid complaint is not seeking specified damages, though he hopes it results in some compensation for the victims. The main goal of the suit, he insists, is to educate the world and put corporations on notice that they cannot be complicit in the human rights abuses of such regimes and get away with it. The fact that the named corporations managed to make money is no justification for the fact that their activities contributed to one of the most despicable periods in the twentieth century, despite what some conservatives believe. ---
**Author:** ![butter\_pie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aca169/32.png) [@butter\_pie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butter_pie)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/6 "2002-11-14T01:01:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\* > Jesus Christ in velvet hotpants! \*\* I want that! ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/7 "2002-11-14T01:21:03Z")
Hey, I wouldn’t knock the “raising public awareness” angle. It wasn’t too long after I read up on IG Farben before I discovered that Bayer aspirin’s micro-coating failed to prevent me from getting an upset stomach. It tasted just a little too much like Zyklon-B. ---
**Author:** ![kevja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/8 "2002-11-14T04:04:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*[Ugh!](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,70149,00.html) > > Jesus Christ in velvet hotpants! \*\* I’d like to see a that as a dash board statue. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/9 "2002-11-14T04:05:21Z")
Amen, **Sofa King**. I feel the same way about Ford, (not to mention VW and BMW,) and Hugo Boss. A long memory helps to prevent us from going down that road again. There is a considerable amount of background relevant to the suit available at [Africa Action](http://www.africaaction.org/action/adrc0211.htm), not the least of which is this summary: > [@](#): > > COMPLAINT SUMMARY > > Khulumani et al. v. Barclays et al. > > This lawsuit is based on common law principles of liability and on the Alien Tort Claims Act, 28 U.S.C. =A71350, which grants U.S. courts jurisdiction over certain violations of international law, regardless of where they occur. This statute is increasingly being used to bring to justice those who commit human rights abuses. Recent successful cases under this statute include the Doe v. Unocal case, which upheld a lawsuit against Unocal Corporation by victims of human rights violations perpetrated by the Myanmar military in connection with an oil pipeline project. In Unocal the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals held that a corporation that aided and abetted human rights violations by a foreign sovereign can be held liable for those abuses. > > Extrajudicial killings, torture, and arbitrary detention are recognized violations of international law and all of these were practiced by the Apartheid regime in South Africa between 1960 and 1993. Apartheid itself was recognized as a crime against humanity and a violation of international by the world community, as evidenced by decades of U.N. resolutions and the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. > > The Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa specifically concluded that “Business was central to the economy that sustained the South African state during the apartheid years. Certain businesses, especially the mining industry, were involved in helping to design and implement apartheid policies. Other businesses benefitted from cooperating with the security structures of the former state. Most businesses benefitted from operating in a racially structured context.” > > This complaint seeks to hold those businesses that aided and abetted the apartheid regime responsible for the wrongs they made possible. \*\*For example: IBM and ICL provided the computers that enabled South Africa to create the hated pass book system and to control the black South African population. Car manufacturers provided the armored vehicles that were used to patrol the townships. Arms manufacturers violated the embargoes on sales to South Africa as did the oil companies. The Banks provided the funding that enabled South Africa to expand its police and security apparatus. > > Recent historical evidence demonstrates that the involvement of companies in the key industries of mining, transportation, armaments, technology, oil, and financing were not only instrumental to the implementation of the furtherance of the abuses, but were so integrally connected to the abuses themselves that apartheid would probably not have occurred in the same way without their participation.\*\* > > The company’s conduct satisfies the standard, common law principles of liability, including aiding and abetting liability which was first imposed on corporate participants in crimes against humanity by the Nuremburg Tribunal. At Nuremburg, the bankers that financed the Third Reich were held liable for crimes against humanity. > > Apartheid was an institutionalized system of racial disenfranchisement, forced labor, and criminal domination. It sought to and did exploit and degrade the black South African population for a criminal purpose, through criminal means. The complaint seeks a measure of justice from those entities which aided or abetted the commission of this atrocity. (My emphasis.) It looks like a pretty solid case, and a long time in coming. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/10 "2002-11-14T08:28:41Z")
Paging **Jodi, Bricker** and **minty green**. Paging **Jodi, Bricker** and **minty green**. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/11 "2002-11-14T12:09:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* > \*\*For example: IBM and ICL provided the computers that enabled South Africa to create the hated pass book system and to control the black South African population. Car manufacturers provided the armored vehicles that were used to patrol the townships. Arms manufacturers violated the embargoes on sales to South Africa as did the oil companies. The Banks provided the funding that enabled South Africa to expand its police and security apparatus. \*\* Where are the governments in all this? Apparently they were > [@](#): > > While numerous U.N resolutions condemned apartheid as perpetuating “crimes against humanity,” and for decades called for oil and trade embargos, there were never any mandatory sanctions against the regime aside from an arms embargo imposed in 1977. doing practically nothing. It is not IBM’s job to decide that country XYZ is immoral and refuse to do business within it. That is why we have governments with their ability to restrict trade. If the goddamn US government doesn’t have the guts to place SA under an embargo, why should IBM? By placing the “blame” on corporations, we give all the governments who sat on their thumbs a free pass. We also give governments a free pass for today’s evil regimes, since corporations should police themselves. Just conducting business within the law isn’t good enough, I suppose… ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/12 "2002-11-14T12:28:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Cheesesteak > It is not IBM’s job to decide that country XYZ is immoral and refuse to do business within it. And if this suit is a winner, they still wouldn’t have to make a moral judgement. An expectation of liability would act as a price signal. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/13 "2002-11-14T16:02:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by black455 \* > \*\* > > And your charicterization of Hausfield is bullshit: > > ## quote: > > ## Unlike Fagen, Hausfeld said his apartheid complaint is not seeking specified damages, though he hopes it results in some compensation for the victims. The main goal of the suit, he insists, is to educate the world and put corporations on notice that they cannot be complicit in the human rights abuses of such regimes and get away with it. > > \*\* Should he say he’s in it for the money? Ummm no, he isn’t going to reveal his true intentions. Ever hear if _spin_? It’s all a moot point, because he knows these companies don’t want to touch this with a 10 foot pole, so they’ll quietly settle. The best way to raise awareness is to sweep things under the rug and silently run off with millions. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/14 "2002-11-14T16:12:23Z")
**Larry** , it looks like the complaint forgot Evian water for keeping them refreshed while they tortured people. It almost reminds me of the peer to peer network argument. “Well they used IBM computers to make a death database, IBM is evil!!!” Just because a product was used in a way it was not intended shouldn’t neccessarily make the company liable of wrongdoing. Now the firearms issue in SA is another thing. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/15 "2002-11-14T16:20:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hawthorne \* > \*\*And if this suit is a winner, they still wouldn’t have to make a moral judgement. An expectation of liability would act as a price signal. \*\* Nice, an expectation of liability based on conducting legal business with another country. The act of selling products in complete accordance with the law should not expose sellers to lawsuits, period. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/16 "2002-11-14T16:30:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Fagen is also behind a $1.4 trillion lawsuit filed in March against numerous American corporations alleging they profited from slavery in the United States 137 years ago. \*\* Who does this guy represent? I wonder if poor whites who weren’t able to compete with slave labor get a piece of this pie. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/17 "2002-11-14T16:33:18Z")
Hiya. On behalf of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, I apologise for any of the following: Apartheid, colonisation of Asian countries, slave trade and subsequent transport, protestantism in the United Kingdom, colonisation of South American countries, colonisation of various Caribian islands, sending over our finest sons to what is now the US and Canada, and the Golden Earring. So, companies that ignored the economic boycot of South Africa are being sued. And this is bad, why? Sure, a lot of the people sueing will have dubious claims at best. If you want to change that, change the American judicial system. Don’t blame the lawyers who take advantage of it. Either people will get what’s coming to them, or they’ll earn a few bucks that they don’t really deserve. Kinda like the 400 pound man who sues McDonalds, or the lung cancer “victim” who sues Marlboro. It’s the system that’s at fault, no the lawyers. I’d like to see them try to get to Royal Dutch Shell, though - even though they deserve every claim they get for completely ignoring the boycot. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/18 "2002-11-14T16:48:11Z")
On behalf of the population of the Earth that does not share the heritage of the Netherlands, I gratefully accept your apology, **Coldy**. Now if you’ll throw in a brief synopsis explaining the whole _Flying Dutchman_ thing, we’ll call this all square and then we can get back to speculating on who “The Bachelor” is going to pick as his sweetie. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/19 "2002-11-14T17:03:25Z")
Yeah well we can still get pissed at people abusing the system. after all we have to live with the consequences of it. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634/20 "2002-11-14T22:43:53Z")
> [@](#): > > **Cheesesteak:** Nice, an expectation of liability based on conducting legal business with another country. The act of selling products in complete accordance with the law should not expose sellers to lawsuits, period. Actually, this isn’t the case at all- the entire complaint rests on the premise that the defendants were in violation of Customary International Law. If they can’t convince the courts of that, then they lose. Very simple. There _is_ liability, if the companies knew that they were doing business with those responsible for human rights violations, and that the goods or services supplied could be used in the furtherance of those violations. It’s not much different from the case of an individual supplying a weapon to someone whom they know intends to commit a crime, or offering them a ride to their victim’s residence, or giving them a place to stay while they plan it. All of these things would and should be perfectly legal, _in the absence of a crime_, but knowledge of the crime makes those acts themselves criminal. Selling armored cars to police and military organizations who are well known to be acting in violation of international law indicates complicity. When there are international sanctions against a corrupt regime, and a bank sees an opportunity to loan that government huge sums of money in anticipation of profiting from extortionist interest rates, that _very clearly_ allows the criminals to hold out longer than they would have without a bail-out, and the bank is culpable for every death, beating, illegal imprisonment, etc that would not have taken place without the aid that they provided. If I _know_ someone wants to kill you, and I legally sell them the means with which to do it, are you saying you’re not going to hold a grudge? After all, a guy’s got a right to make a buck. Suffering Christ. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/encouraging-and-furthering-the-abuses-fuck-you/136634.md?page=2)