# End game in Syria **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133 "2015-09-13T19:45:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/181 "2015-10-01T16:18:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Agreed, but there is still some irony in us critcizing Putin because he might want to bomb different rebel groups than we want. He’s targeting groups we support. I don’t see what’s ironic in criticizing him for it. Question is, what is Obama going to do about it beyond criticizing? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/182 "2015-10-01T16:24:26Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > He’s targeting groups we support. I don’t see what’s ironic in criticizing him for it. Question is, what is Obama going to do about it beyond criticizing? ROTFLMAO. “Do”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/183 "2015-10-01T16:26:38Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Question is, what is Obama going to do about it beyond criticizing? Hopefully nothing militarily. Any further military action by the US in the region would weaken our country. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/184 "2015-10-01T16:32:55Z")
Especially true if the military involvement continues to be half assed. And honest question - does letting Putin call the shots weaken our country? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/185 "2015-10-01T16:34:50Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Especially true if the military involvement continues to be half assed. And honest question - does letting Putin call the shots weaken our country? Depends on the shots he calls. Putin getting involved in Syria will probably weaken Russia, but I don’t see how it weakens the US. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/186 "2015-10-01T16:44:51Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > He’s targeting groups we support. I don’t see what’s ironic in criticizing him for it. Question is, what is Obama going to do about it beyond criticizing? The groups we have supported are primarily mercenaries that the CIA has hired and armed to fight Asaad. Many of those rebels that we had originally financed have switched to ISIS because they paid more than we did. They also took the weapons we provided with them to ISIS. I don’t think the US is in a good position here. Now Russia is continuing to support the Syrian regime they always have, in fighting against both the rebels we financed and ISIS. What was the US’s end game here originally? Help topple Asaad and replace his government with what? The same flimsy structure that is in charge in Iraq? That’s just giving ISIS and open door to step in, like they have already. The US can’t half-ass foreign policy like this. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/187 "2015-10-01T16:51:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Depends on the shots he calls. Putin getting involved in Syria will probably weaken Russia, but I don’t see how it weakens the US. Obama quote, from 2010: “Whether we like it **or not** , we remain a dominant military superpower.” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/188 "2015-10-01T16:53:21Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > The groups we have supported are primarily mercenaries that the CIA has hired and armed to fight Asaad. Many of those rebels that we had originally financed have switched to ISIS because they paid more than we did. They also took the weapons we provided with them to ISIS. > > I don’t think the US is in a good position here. > > Now Russia is continuing to support the Syrian regime they always have, in fighting against both the rebels we financed and ISIS. > > What was the US’s end game here originally? Help topple Asaad and replace his government with what? The same flimsy structure that is in charge in Iraq? > > That’s just giving ISIS and open door to step in, like they have already. The US can’t half-ass foreign policy like this. Do you have a cite for any of this?? I had heard that we had provided very limited training for a few fighters and most of them are dead, not that they had switched to ISIS/ISIL. Part of the reason we had done such limited assistance was to prevent what you are claiming has happened, so I’m going to need to see some evidence that your assertions are what’s happening. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/189 "2015-10-01T17:14:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Obama quote, from 2010: “Whether we like it **or not** , we remain a dominant military superpower.” ??? So what? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/190 "2015-10-01T17:23:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Obama quote, from 2010: “Whether we like it **or not** , we remain a dominant military superpower.” Let me help you out by [putting that quote in context](http://mediamatters.org/research/2010/04/14/right-wing-sites-misleadingly-crop-obama-remark/163171) in order to avoid having these kinds of misleading interpretations in the future. > [@linked article](#): > > In fact, Obama’s remarks show he was referring to cost of getting “pulled into” violent international conflicts ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/191 "2015-10-01T21:13:31Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > They aren’t critiquing the accuracy. They are questioning the intentions as it looks like Russia accurately targeted non-ISIS rebels which seem more problematic to Assad forces. Which is only sound strategy at work. First solidify the terrain still held by the government, then expand. The best direction to expand is to take back the north, held by rebels and who are situated between the government and Daesh. Just haphazardly bombing Daesh might look good, but it doesn’t really help with the reconquista. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/192 "2015-10-01T21:21:31Z")
The interesting situation here is that when US and France decided they had the right to bomb targets in Syria without Syria’s government’s acquiescence or UN authorization, they basically opened the doors for other countries to do the same. Turkey is now using the same excuse to bomb the Kurds in Iraq and Syria. So Russia (_with_ Syria’s government acquiescence) is now doing the same. Exactly how can US protest either Turkey or Syria’s actions without looking like an utter hypocrite (not that it ever stopped US before, really)? I’ve noticed this tendency with Russians, actually. They love the rules. True, they will try to game them/bend them as much as they can, but they at least pretend to follow them, both internationally (like getting Syria to request their presence) and domestically (as seen by Putin getting “permission” from the Duma to go into Syria). To contrast, US government often just plows ahead ignoring any rules that are broken, again both domestically and internationally. Which seems to irk the Russians to no end. The Serbian air campaign was like that. So are the Syria air attacks. Lord knows, I am not a fan of Russia/Putin. But I can kinda see their point. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/193 "2015-10-01T21:33:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The interesting situation here is that when US and France decided they had the right to bomb targets in Syria without Syria’s government’s acquiescence or UN authorization, they basically opened the doors for other countries to do the same. Turkey is now using the same excuse to bomb the Kurds in Iraq and Syria. So Russia (_with_ Syria’s government acquiescence) is now doing the same. Exactly how can US protest either Turkey or Syria’s actions without looking like an utter hypocrite (not that it ever stopped US before, really)? > > I’ve noticed this tendency with Russians, actually. They love the rules. True, they will try to game them/bend them as much as they can, but they at least pretend to follow them, both internationally (like getting Syria to request their presence) and domestically (as seen by Putin getting “permission” from the Duma to go into Syria). To contrast, US government often just plows ahead ignoring any rules that are broken, again both domestically and internationally. Which seems to irk the Russians to no end. The Serbian air campaign was like that. So are the Syria air attacks. > > Lord knows, I am not a fan of Russia/Putin. But I can kinda see their point. How would the US (or anyone else) get UN approval?? That’s silly to even mention since Russia has veto ability on the UNSC. The US is part of a fairly large coalition wrt acting in Syria. I’m unsure why you think that Russia securing Assad’s OK trumps that, but whatever. I don’t see Putin’s point except as an attempt to try and prop up a brutal regime to keep Russia’s influence in the region. The only reason the world hasn’t acted is, again, the UNSC has countries like Russia and China with veto powers to block any such move and keep someone like Assad and his barrel bombs going. So, no…I don’t sympathize with Putin and find it hard to believe anyone would unless they WERE a ‘fan of Russia/Putin’ and buying his horseshit. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/194 "2015-10-01T21:37:26Z")
Yes Russia loves the rules. They had the integrity to at least lie about being in Crimea before the referendum on annexation. Lol. Though this Russian move in to Syria may take some heat off of the Ukraine. Reports seem to indicate things are winding down there. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/195 "2015-10-01T21:40:09Z")
> [@XT](#): > > How would the US (or anyone else) get UN approval?? That’s silly to even mention since Russia has veto ability on the UNSC. The US is part of a fairly large coalition wrt acting in Syria. I’m unsure why you think that Russia securing Assad’s OK trumps that, but whatever. Again, those are the rules. US signed up to those rules. The veto is part of the rules. The “fairly large coalition” is ignoring the rules. “But we cannot get approval under the rules” is not, in general, a legitimate reason to break the rules, I hope you agree. > [@](#): > > I don’t see Putin’s point except as an attempt to try and prop up a brutal regime to keep Russia’s influence in the region. It is not _just_ to prop up a brutal regime. It is to prop up a brutal regime as the means to prevent another brutal regime (possibly a lot _more_ brutal regime) that would be less friendly/pliable. It’s not the most moral of choices, but then Russians don’t concern themselves much with morality in international relations. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/196 "2015-10-01T21:41:56Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yes Russia loves the rules. They had the integrity to at least lie about being in Crimea before the referendum on annexation. Lol. Exactly. US would just invade (Panama/Grenada, anyone?) and not even pretend to follow any rules. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/197 "2015-10-01T21:49:19Z")
But that’s pretty thin. If the U.S. had said throughout the Panama invasion “No we’re not invading. Those guys are on vacation” it’s no less a outrageous violation of the rules. Russia lies when they break the rules and the U.S. just make up special rules when they do it. Same diff imho. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/198 "2015-10-01T22:09:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, those are the rules. US signed up to those rules. The veto is part of the rules. The “fairly large coalition” is ignoring the rules. “But we cannot get approval under the rules” is not, in general, a legitimate reason to break the rules, I hope you agree. > It is not _just_ to prop up a brutal regime. It is to prop up a brutal regime as the means to prevent another brutal regime (possibly a lot _more_ brutal regime) that would be less friendly/pliable. It’s not the most moral of choices, but then Russians don’t concern themselves much with morality in international relations. Kind of a continuation of CarnalK’s theme…the Russian’s only play by the rules when they want to. They didn’t ‘play by the rules’ wrt the Ukraine, for instance…or several other independent nations that were formerly part of the old Soviet Empire either. As to the first, no, I don’t agree…obviously the UN wrt the UNSC is pretty useless, since every major power has veto rights. Basically, if the US ‘played by the rules’ nothing would ever be done or even be possible, since rarely are the US, UK, France, China and Russia (formerly the USSR…or perhaps we have the USSR v2.3 these days) going to agree on international policy. It’s disingenuous to point to Russia as the sole nation willing to play by the rules to keep poor Assad in power while a large number of nations are breaking the rules and acting badly. What that means, basically, is that because RUSSIA decided that Assad should stay in power that the rest of the world has to put up with that because UNSC veto! That’s is horseshit, plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/199 "2015-10-01T22:21:39Z")
> [@XT](#): > > As to the first, no, I don’t agree…obviously the UN wrt the UNSC is pretty useless, since every major power has veto rights. Basically, if the US ‘played by the rules’ nothing would ever be done or even be possible, since rarely are the US, UK, France, China and Russia (formerly the USSR…or perhaps we have the USSR v2.3 these days) going to agree on international policy. That’s a feature not a bug. Our track recird of “getting things done” outside that process is not very good. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/200 "2015-10-01T22:30:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s a feature not a bug. Our track recird of “getting things done” outside that process is not very good. No, I disagree. The fact that the US is singularly bad at doing stuff like this does not make the system rational wrt an actual international community able to take action when states such as Syria go rogue. What it sets up is basically blocks from the international community being able to do anything under the UN unless the nation in question is so outside of the community that none of the major powers care. What the system we have basically allows is for one nation (or a minority of nations) being able to block action through UN channels just because they want to…in the case, Russia wants Assad to stay in power so blocks the rest of the world from being able to do anything about the situation under UN auspices. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133.md?page=11)