# End game in Syria **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133 "2015-09-13T19:45:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/541 "2015-10-14T06:03:30Z")
…or is that nonsense ? ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/542 "2015-10-15T05:43:49Z")
I had to look for an opposition manifesto, but I found one from the Islamic Front. It’s all in Arabic though. [http://carnegieendowment.org/syriaincrisis/?fa=54233&reloadFlag=1](http://carnegieendowment.org/syriaincrisis/?fa=54233&reloadFlag=1) But the Carnegie people have made some translation > [@](#): > > …in Article 10 the manifesto specifies that the Islamic Front will not “participate in any political process that contravenes religion or locates sovereignty anywhere but in the law of Glorified and Sublime God. Any political process that does not recognize that legislation is the right of God, and of no one else, would run contrary to religion and thus be an illegitimate mean. It would not be possible for the Islamic Front to participate in it, or to recognize it, or to rely on it.”\*\* > > An Islamic State or Nothing\*\* > > It will therefore come as no surprise that the Islamic Front [rejects](https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByBt2sGl4U4hU2lrZGFoeUtkV1k/edit) secularism, which it considers to mean “the separation of religion from life and society, and its confinement to rituals, conventions, and traditions. This is contrary to Islam, which organizes the affairs of the individual, the society, and the state.” > It also spurns the term “civil state” (_dawla madaniya_), which the Muslim Brotherhood and some other Islamist factions have used to bridge their differences with secular groups and Western allies. According to the Islamic Front’s manifesto, the term is too poorly defined and “misleading.” The front will accept no ambiguity about the goal of an Islamic state. > Democracy and parliamentary rule are also rejected. In the eyes of the Islamic Front, electoral systems are “based on legislation being a right of the people through representative institutions, whereas in Islam, ‘judgment belongs only to God.’” (The latter phrase is from the [Quran 12:40](http://quran.com/12/40), and it is intended here to mean that only God can make laws.) > **Theocracy With Checks and Balances** > > The political head of the Islamic Front, Hassan Abboud of [Ahrar al-Sham](http://www.ahraralsham.com/), a major Salafi militia, argues that an Islamic state would still guarantee a measure of political freedom. “The West suffers from a misconception about Islamists in general,” he said to [Al Jazeera English](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUCsLy-h35Y) in a recent interview. > In the vision sketched out by Abboud and his fellow ideologues, Syria’s Islamic state will be built on institutions rather than authoritarian rule. No party or individual will have sole control, and there will be laws and courts that monitor the actions of state officials and prevent the undue accumulation of power. > Abboud has also stated that women will be allowed to study and work, as long as this is in [accordance with Islamic law](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUCsLy-h35Y). When asked if women will be allowed to drive cars, Abboud scoffed at the question, saying no one in Syria ever suggested otherwise. > **No Democracy But Some Voting** > > “When we refuse democracy, it certainly doesn’t mean that we want an authoritarian, tyrannical, dictatorial, or totalitarian regime that confiscates rights and oppresses the people,” Abboud said to [Al Jazeera](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twYIqpIYaG0) in December. “Rather, we want a regime built on consultation [_shoura_] and the participation of the nation [_umma_], where it can play its role in supervising the ruler.” > In such a system, there could certainly be voting on some matters, for example the appointment of officials and the allocation of resources, as long as no action is taken that could challenge or dilute the supremacy of sharia law. > What Abboud seems to be arguing for, though he probably wouldn’t like the comparison, is something akin to a Sunni version of Iran: a republican theocracy supervised by religious scholars where there is some degree of political competition within sharia-compliant but otherwise modern institutions and where the role of politicians is to administer a strict application of sharia rather than to make laws of their own. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/543 "2015-10-16T05:54:27Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > The US has plenty of interests it’s just impotent - it has just stopped one idea after blowing $500 million on a total of “5 or 6” trained fighters. Most credit you can give Obama is for not firing off rockets to make it seem he knows what he’s doing for domestic consumption. Yes-who knows what will emerge if Assad falls-maybe another version of Iran? We should have learned our lesson from iraq. Instead, we just keep going back for more’ Wait till Germany balks at taking in another 4 million “refugees”. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/544 "2015-10-16T06:32:28Z")
Why doesn’t US just give up? I mean, seriously, you know Vlad is just going to bitchslap Barry into oblivion. I know. You know it Vlad knows it. Barry knows it. Vlad knows that Barry knows it. Barry knows that Vlad knows that Barry knows it. Why doesn’t US just give up and leave the whole ME region to Russia? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/545 "2015-10-16T09:02:39Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > Why doesn’t US just give up and leave the whole ME region to Russia? Sounds like US victory for me. I’m all for it. Sucks for Russia, but if he’s stupid enough to get mired in the region then that’s his loss. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/546 "2015-10-16T09:09:45Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > Why doesn’t US just give up and leave the whole ME region to Russia? One word, three letters, first letter ‘o’ ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/547 "2015-10-16T09:36:19Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > Why doesn’t US just give up and leave the whole ME region to Russia? How about they both leave the Middle East to the Middle Easterners? This whole “areas of control” thing is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/548 "2015-10-16T11:05:51Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > One word, three letters, first letter ‘o’ Could be… I like oil, personally. It’s great for all sorts of things I need, and even for things I don’t. But its becoming a bit of a problem. Not just regarding supply, which has more or less, peaked, but other probs like climate change and water supply. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/549 "2015-10-16T13:27:44Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > I mean, seriously, you know Vlad is just going to bitchslap Barry into oblivion. I liked _Pravda_ better when it was just a newspaper. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/550 "2015-10-16T13:37:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How about they both leave the Middle East to the Middle Easterners? This whole “areas of control” thing is bullshit. Now theres an idea. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/551 "2015-10-16T15:29:40Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Now theres an idea. What? That’s crazy talk. How will people save themselves if we don’t come in and do it for them? I mean, in the entire history of civilization, has there ever been a country where people were freer and more prosperous than Americans? (Naturally, this question is rhetorical: the answer is “no” and there certainly are no other measures of success for a nation.) It’s just that non-American people are stubborn. It takes them a long time to admit that their own culture is inferior, and of course their moral failings are why military interventions keep going wrong. But give us a little more time! Once we convince them of our superiority, they’ll get with the program. We’ll see peace (and Starbucks, and Taco Bell) in the Middle East in our lifetime, you’ll see. Or Armageddon and the Second Coming of Jesus, which is also a good outcome. Yours Sincerely, A Nation of Dangerous Ignorance ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/553 "2015-10-31T17:03:21Z")
Almost started a new thread, but this one isn’t that old so… … And we now have “boots on the ground” in Syria. [Link.](http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/30/politics/syria-troops-special-operations-forces/index.html) Barack, baby, you’ve really gone too far now. What are you thinking!?!? ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/554 "2015-10-31T21:53:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > … And we now have “boots on the ground” in Syria. [Link.](http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/30/politics/syria-troops-special-operations-forces/index.html) and now we’re **saying** we have boots on the ground in Syria. We knew they were there briefly in May during a [raid.](http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/16/middleeast/syria-isis-us-raid/) While one of the core competencies of Army Special Operations is advising foreign forces most of that task fell to conventional forces during OIF/OEF. Given the training only nature of our advise and assist mission it didn’t take more than conventional forces. Yet there’s been a robust special operations presence inside Iraq in open source information. They haven’t been there to work on their tans and play cards. Likely we’ve been in fights on a regular basis for months in both Iraq and Syria. The recent death of [MSG Joshua Wheeler](http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/10/27/delta-force-kia-led-assault-team-isis-prison-iraq-source-says.html)while advising Kurdish forces on a raid inside Iraq highlights just how far the SOCOM troops have been going while “staying out of combat.” They didn’t just help with training; he went along on the raid. Oh and the conventional forces mission where they aren’t seeing combat suffered their first casualty from [hostile fire in **March**.](http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/03/13/soldier-shot-in-nose-first-us-combat-casualty-in-fight-against-i.html) That was Iraq but it’s still a clear demonstration of the reality of “no boots on the ground” in the fight against ISIS prior to this. The base he was guarding when shot in the nose, received indirect fire on a regular basis too. (Dear mom, We’re not in combat but sometimes it rains steel and high explosives. The weather here is crazy. 😉 ) We also shoved a couple hundred advise and assist troops in to al-Taqaddum airbase after Ramadi fell. That base is located between Ramadi and Falliujah which are both controlled by ISIS. American troops have been inside a salient sticking in to ISIS lines for 4 months. I haven’t seen any “weather” reports from there though. > [@](#): > > Barack, baby, you’ve really gone too far now. What are you thinking!?!? He’s said the mission is to defeat ISIS all along. He even included ground troops used in this way in his request for a new AUMF. His thinking about the objective and even possible methods isn’t new. They tried other methods. If the methods aren’t working you look for methods that do. This isn’t even all that big of a ratchet up if you consider all the hints about what’s been happening in the media. They are just putting the fiction of not being exposed to hostile fire to bed. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/555 "2015-10-31T21:58:34Z")
Got nothing to do with ISIS. Token bullshit so his/US policy doesn’t look as clueless as it currently is, and also to take some of the narrative spotlight away from Putin. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/556 "2015-10-31T22:04:53Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > He’s said the mission is to defeat ISIS all along. He even included ground troops used in this way in his request for a new AUMF. His thinking about the objective and even possible methods isn’t new. They tried other methods. If the methods aren’t working you look for methods that do. This isn’t even all that big of a ratchet up if you consider all the hints about what’s been happening in the media. They are just putting the fiction of not being exposed to hostile fire to bed. Yeah, sending in 50 special ops guys is going to do the trick to defeat Da-esh. The next 6 months will be crucial. I sense we are about to turn the corner any minute now. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/557 "2015-10-31T22:35:14Z")
What if it turns out that ISIS destroyed the Russian airliner over Sinai? then things will get really interesting. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/558 "2015-10-31T22:50:51Z")
Some one ought to make a sitcom out of the ISIS Catastrophe Claim Office. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/559 "2015-11-01T00:53:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, sending in 50 special ops guys is going to do the trick to defeat Da-esh. The next 6 months will be crucial. I sense we are about to turn the corner any minute now. That mission is being sold as an adviser mission. That’s advisers for several battalions worth of Kurdish fighters along with the right radios and trained observers to talk to NATO air assets in the coalition. That’s not insignificant. Call it around a Brigade that is about to see an improvement in capabilities. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/560 "2015-11-01T03:58:22Z")
IT’s definitely a force multiplier. Witness how small numbers of special forces calling in airstrikes and working with the Northern Alliance routed the Taliban. Bombing alone has never been an effective military tactic. But small numbers of ground forces with good air support can take the enemy apart. Good call, Mr. President. And if it’s working, send more. Take away all of ISIS’ territory, overthrow Assad, and give Putin a bloody nose rather than him doing it to us for a change. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/561 "2015-11-01T04:35:41Z")
Here’s a clue; the Kurds are still there, fighting, holding ground, winning when armed properly. The Americans went home, both cutey weekend warrior national guardy types and regulars. Who the fuck do you think would be _advising_ who. Except it’s not even that: Bit of bullshit shop window dressing is all, for the gullible at home. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133.md?page=29)