# End game in Syria **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133 "2015-09-13T19:45:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/81 "2015-09-28T02:07:11Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > So, Messrs. Obama and Putin are meeting on Tuesday to discuss Syria. How exactly will President Putin outplay his opponent? Same way Johnson outplayed Brezhnev: by sending U.S. troops into an unwinnable civil war with no vital national interest at stake. Then Brezhnev outplayed Carter by sending Soviet troops to occupy a small, violent country for ten years for no real reason at all. Now Putin has outplayed Obama by sending Russian troops to Syria! Uh, the word “outplayed” might not be the right word. What’s the concept I’m thinking of? Oh yes - “shooting one’s self in the foot.” ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/82 "2015-09-28T02:13:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Same way Johnson outplayed Brezhnev You don’t think it’s going to be same way, when Putin outplayed Obama over Syria couple of years ago, when Obama drew the red line at Assad using chemical weapons and said “Assad must go”, and Putin just smiled and said “net” to all of that nonsense? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/83 "2015-09-28T02:26:13Z")
Russia sent troops to Syria. Quick prediction: will that turn out well for Russia? I say no. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/84 "2015-09-28T02:30:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I know the term “Middle East” is fluid, but Egypt is in North Africa, and Iran is in Asia. > > Turkey is, mostly, in the ME. Once you get east of Iraq, though, I think you’re in Asia. > > But, yeah, I was actually thinking as I typed that post earlier that “real countries” are like Iran or Egypt. And Turkey. I’m actually surprised Dr. Lewis didn’t mention Turkey since he’s always been such a Turcophile. Perhaps he was thinking of how recent the concept of Turkish nationalism is. I’m also a little surprised he’d have referred to “the Middle East” instead of “the Near East”. Either way, they’re both fairly vague, fluid terms but in my experience old school Orientalists and Ottomanists like him say tend to say “Near East”. I should add I’m not using the term “Orientalist” as a pejorative. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/85 "2015-09-28T03:04:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Russia sent troops to Syria. Quick prediction: will that turn out well for Russia? I say no. Eh…Russian troops have been in Syria for several years now, and so far the Russia’s goal (keeping Assad in power) turns out a lot better than US goal (Assad’s removal). Heck, Pentagon just admitted to spending $41 million on training “rebels”, with the end result being that only [4 or 5](https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/09/16/pentagon-just-spent-41-million-to-train-four-or-five-syrian-fighters/) (not 4 or 5 thousand, just 4 or 5) of those are actually in the field fighting. Given all that, and the history of Obama-Putin relationship, the only question is how badly will Tuesday meeting turn out for US President… ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/86 "2015-09-28T19:42:00Z")
The enemy of my enemy is my ally. So who is the biggest threat in Syria? I’d say ISIS. ISIS has used the civil war in Syria to take control of a majority of the region, of which they don’t recognize borders. So if ISIS is the biggest threat, then the Syrian government (backed by Russia) needs a seat at the table on how to deal with ISIS. They want ISIS gone, we want ISIS gone, Iran wants ISIS gone. This shouldn’t be that hard. Can we have a short term coalition with certain guarantees by all parties to create some stability in the region? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/87 "2015-09-28T20:36:26Z")
One would hope. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/88 "2015-09-28T20:40:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I know the term “Middle East” is fluid, but Egypt is in North Africa, and Iran is in Asia. That’s why we say “MENA.” ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/89 "2015-09-28T20:47:35Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > The enemy of my enemy is my ally. > > So who is the biggest threat in Syria? > > I’d say ISIS. ISIS has used the civil war in Syria to take control of a majority of the region, of which they don’t recognize borders. > > So if ISIS is the biggest threat, then the Syrian government (backed by Russia) needs a seat at the table on how to deal with ISIS. They want ISIS gone, we want ISIS gone, Iran wants ISIS gone. > > This shouldn’t be that hard. Can we have a short term coalition with certain guarantees by all parties to create some stability in the region? Except, of course, that every time we try that, it doesn’t work and just makes for larger problems down the road. Heck, that’s how this whole thing stated to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/90 "2015-09-28T21:20:47Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > You don’t think it’s going to be same way, when Putin outplayed Obama over Syria couple of years ago, when Obama drew the red line at Assad using chemical weapons and said “Assad must go”, and Putin just smiled and said “net” to all of that nonsense? > [@Alkash](#): > > Eh…Russian troops have been in Syria for several years now, and so far the Russia’s goal (keeping Assad in power) turns out a lot better than US goal (Assad’s removal). > Heck, Pentagon just admitted to spending $41 million on training “rebels”, with the end result being that only [4 or 5](https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/09/16/pentagon-just-spent-41-million-to-train-four-or-five-syrian-fighters/) (not 4 or 5 thousand, just 4 or 5) of those are actually in the field fighting. > Given all that, and the history of Obama-Putin relationship, the only question is how badly will Tuesday meeting turn out for US President… Forgive my naïveté, but when Russia sends troops and equipment to Syria, does it do so at no financial/human cost? How come it’s wasteful and stupid when the US does it but (presumably) money spent wisely and well when Russia does it? And since when does the US have to be the smartest guy in the room 100% of the time? Can no-one else have a good idea, ever? If Putin has a better idea for handling the situation in Seria, is it only Russia that wins or does the rest of the world get to share in that success as well? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/91 "2015-09-28T21:29:25Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Except, of course, that every time we try that, it doesn’t work and just makes for larger problems down the road. Heck, that’s how this whole thing stated to begin with. You have to take care of each problem one at a time. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/92 "2015-09-28T21:37:53Z")
Why is ISIS the biggest threat in Syria, exactly? The government is a state sponsor of terrorism. Is there are particular reason American conservatives shit their pants about ISIS but handwave away a government that has actually threatened US security? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/93 "2015-09-28T21:51:46Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > You have to take care of each problem one at a time. And that’s how we’ve ended up with today’s Middle East-- a nonstop source of threats and headaches. We need to map a way forward that will lead to sustainably stability, not just infinite whack-a-mole. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/94 "2015-09-28T22:51:13Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > lol. tomndebb put it there. Regardless, that was way too huge a cut and paste for around here, especially when you didn’t put anything of your own in the post. The article was properly attributed with “A.G.”–a nom de guerre of Александр Гольц–it’s original Russian author and editor-in-cheif of “Daily Journal”. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/95 "2015-09-28T23:06:20Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Forgive my naïveté, but when Russia sends troops and equipment to Syria, does it do so at no financial/human cost? I’m not sure what is so hard to understand here? The US spends (“wastes” is a more appropriate word) its own money–such as recently spending $41 million dollars to train “4 or 5” (Pentagon wasn’t sure exactly) “rebels”. Syrian government pays Russia for the weapons it receives ([this source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%27s_role_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War#Arms_Sales) estimates the current contracts to be worth about 1.5 billion dollars) See the difference here? The US **wastes** its money in Syria, while Russia is **earning** money from Syria. And, of course, needless to say: selling Syrian government tanks, planes, gunships, missiles and ammunition has an infinitely bigger impact on the battlefield than training “4 or 5” rebels. Look, I’ll make things even simpler here: on one hand we have Vladimir Putin, the best world-class politician of the last 27 years, on the other hand we have…well, you know who we have… No further explanation should be needed. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/96 "2015-09-28T23:12:50Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > I’m not sure what is so hard to understand here? > The US spends (“wastes” is a more appropriate word) its own money–such as recently spending $41 million dollars to train “4 or 5” (Pentagon wasn’t sure exactly) “rebels”. Correction: it was [$500 million](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/16/us-military-syrian-isis-fighters). Not $41 million. At a great discount rate of $100M per “fighter”. “Fighter” is in quotes because it is not clear if they have actually fought. ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/97 "2015-09-28T23:23:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Correction: it was [$500 million](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/16/us-military-syrian-isis-fighters). Not $41 million. At a great discount rate of $100M per “fighter”. “Fighter” is in quotes because it is not clear if they have actually fought. Jesus H. Christ…I could’ve sworn a few weeks ago they admitted to only spending $41 million on this fiasco…So, the real figure must run into couple of billions… So, to sum up: the two biggest news from Pentagon in the last couple of weeks is wasting half a billion (probably way more) on “4 or 5” fighters and nominating [the first openly gay secretary to lead army](http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-to-nominate-first-openly-gay-service-secretary-to-lead-the-army/2015/09/18/d4b1aafe-5e30-11e5-8e9e-dce8a2a2a679_story.html) Nero fiddles while Rome burns… ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/98 "2015-09-28T23:33:10Z")
_“The training initiative **(the one that cost $500 million and produced 4 or 5 fighters–emphasis mine)** is Barack Obama’s linchpin for retaking Syrian territory from Isis”_ :smack::smack: ---
**Author:** ![Yersenia\_Pestis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e495f1/32.png) [@Yersenia\_Pestis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yersenia_Pestis)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/99 "2015-09-28T23:55:01Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > I’m not sure what is so hard to understand here? > The US spends (“wastes” is a more appropriate word) its own money–such as recently spending $41 million dollars to train “4 or 5” (Pentagon wasn’t sure exactly) “rebels”. > Syrian government pays Russia for the weapons it receives ([this source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%27s_role_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War#Arms_Sales) estimates the current contracts to be worth about 1.5 billion dollars) > See the difference here? The US **wastes** its money in Syria, while Russia is **earning** money from Syria. > And, of course, needless to say: selling Syrian government tanks, planes, gunships, missiles and ammunition has an infinitely bigger impact on the battlefield than training “4 or 5” rebels. > Look, I’ll make things even simpler here: on one hand we have Vladimir Putin, the best world-class politician of the last 27 years, on the other hand we have…well, you know who we have… > No further explanation should be needed. Putin is a world class politician?? Are you kidding me? He’s basically turning his country into his personal oligarchy- no free media (imagine all we had was Fox News for news sources…) and he’s been basically brain washing his people into thinking “the good ol days” are back… In the meanwhile, he’s completely isolating his nation, running massive debts because of his Ukrainian adventure and plummeting oil prices - his country’s economy is in ruins Let him go into Syria and let him “dive in the mud” (aka sending troops to the Middle East), they will get burned just like they did in Afghanistan. Obama should keep what he is doing and let the Russians do themselves in ---
**Author:** ![Alkash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Alkash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alkash)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133/100 "2015-09-29T00:07:39Z")
> [@Yersenia\_Pestis](#): > > running massive debts Huh? Russia’s national debt is estimated to be around $245 billion–around [18%](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/government-debt-to-gdp) of its GDP. The same figure for the US is more than 18 trillion dollars and way above 100% of its GDP. Please try to operate using facts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-game-in-syria/731133.md?page=6)