# End of life. Do we need a test? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2005, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536 "2005-03-21T10:11:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/61 "2005-03-23T20:14:25Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > \ The husband has a new common law wife and children, Terri is just unfinished business. \ You are incorrect. Michael Schiavo cannot possibly have another wife, he’s currently still **legally married** to Terri. He has a woman he loves, who has stood by him and borne his child, but she is NOT his wife. It’s none of our business if he does marry her after he has carried out his duty by Terri, and seen to it that her wishes have been met either. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/62 "2005-03-23T20:20:08Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > Is death by starvation any more or less than humane or pleasant of a way die than any other? Death is rarely pleasant for anyone. “Pleasant” implies the ability to feel pleasure, an ability that Ms. Schiavo lost over a decade ago. As far as I can tell, what remains are Ms. Schiavo’s remains; there is nothing of her left in them. To speak of starvation as less pleasant is akin to saying that being buried is a more pleasant fate for your remains than being cremated. I think that her loved ones ought to have some consideration into how her body is disposed, and the first step of that involves ending the residual life in that body (again, a life that contains nothing of Ms. Schiavo). I believe that starvation is probably less pleasant **for her survivors** than other methods, such as morphine shots; but our society is inflicting this cruelty on the survivors. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scoundrel_Swanswater)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/63 "2005-03-24T06:54:08Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am not saying anything that you would want to understand. Wow, that is an extremely easy cop-out. If you are not interested in serious discussion, what the hell are you doing in Great Debates? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/64 "2005-03-24T09:44:54Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If you visited the nursing homes across America you would find hundreds like Terri. Do you really want the government to decide who dies. I don’t. Me neither. That’s why Judge Greer’s ruling was appropriate and things like Terri’s Law were abhorrent. Greer’s ruling was on what TERRI would decide. Terri’s Law was all about taking that choice away and giving it to a politician. > [@](#): > > Do you want doctors to say your life has no quality, and therefore you should die. Especially went the doctors don’t even have a good definition of consciousness. No, I want doctors to be able to tell others that I am in a state that I may have told those others I don’t want to be artificially maintained in. > [@](#): > > Roger Penrose, eminent physicist and winner of the prestigious Wolf Prize, states in his book “The Emperor’s New Mind” that “we don’t have a good definition of consciousness because we don’t know what it is.” Suffice to say, lekatt, if consciousness is something that can survive after the destruction of the brain, why should you be so worried about the death of the body? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/65 "2005-03-24T14:50:13Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Me neither. That’s why Judge Greer’s ruling was appropriate and things like Terri’s Law were abhorrent. Greer’s ruling was on what TERRI would decide. Terri’s Law was all about taking that choice away and giving it to a politician. > > No, I want doctors to be able to tell others that I am in a state that I may have told those others I don’t want to be artificially maintained in. > > Suffice to say, lekatt, if consciousness is something that can survive after the destruction of the brain, why should you be so worried about the death of the body? I am not worried about death, I have been there, and I will enjoy returning when my life’s work is finished. I am worried about Terri’s family, on TV they look ever more distraught as the days go by. I can’t imagine how it would feel if that were my daughter. Doctors don’t know what consciousness is or what it is capable of, they are only using past experiences. However, each individual is unique, no doctor can say when someone should die. A doctor told me I probably wouldn’t last six months, when I had a heart problem. That was 18 years ago. The family had agreed to sponsor Terri, taking on all her experiences and work with her. Why shouldn’t they have that right. Her husband has a new common law wife and kids. Also when the paramedics arrived to aid Terri, they called the police saying it looked like a homicide. Did any of this get discussed in court? But most of all I object to starving someone to death. The body begins to eat itself, and the doctors don’t know what she is feeling. This is a horrific situation, and shows the callousness of our judges. I believe it will convince a lot of people that our country needs to turn back to ways of morality, and God. Look for more religion and law conflicts in the future. We feed Terri, not because it’s the law, or not the law, but because it’s the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/66 "2005-03-24T15:25:37Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The family had agreed to sponsor Terri, taking on all her experiences and work with her. Why shouldn’t they have that right. The family=her parents. From what I heard, the family had asked that she be spared this mockery of life and be allowed to die in peace. > [@](#): > > Her husband has a new common law wife and kids. Also when the paramedics arrived to aid Terri, they called the police saying it looked like a homicide. > > Did any of this get discussed in court? That question has an answer. Have you researched it yet? > [@](#): > > This is a horrific situation, and shows the callousness of our judges. I believe it will convince a lot of people that our country needs to turn back to ways of morality Replace “judges” with “representatives,” and I’ll agree. I don’t think people’s turn to morality will be toward your morality, though. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/67 "2005-03-24T15:28:13Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Doctors don’t know what consciousness is or what it is capable of, they are only using past experiences. Tell me again why we’re supposed to believe you instead of doctors, or indeed anyone who knows what they’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scoundrel_Swanswater)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/68 "2005-03-24T15:50:58Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The family had agreed to sponsor Terri, taking on all her experiences and work with her. Why shouldn’t they have that right. Because she clearly explicitly said to her husband that she wouldn’t want to be kept alive in a situation like this. > [@lekatt](#): > > Her husband has a new common law wife and kids. Also when the paramedics arrived to aid Terri, they called the police saying it looked like a homicide. This is simply not true. Please research. > [@lekatt](#): > > But most of all I object to starving someone to death. The body begins to eat itself, and the doctors don’t know what she is feeling. So you are saying that the soul can suffer physical pain? Than why do our souls seem to leave our body, when we are in extreme physical pain? You are contradicting everything you seem to stand for. > [@lekatt](#): > > I believe it will convince a lot of people that our country needs to turn back to ways of morality, and God. Look for more religion and law conflicts in the future. And which God are we talking about? The Christian God? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/69 "2005-03-24T20:12:25Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > The family=her parents. From what I heard, the family had asked that she be spared this mockery of life and be allowed to die in peace. > > That question has an answer. Have you researched it yet? > > Replace “judges” with “representatives,” and I’ll agree. I don’t think people’s turn to morality will be toward your morality, though. > > Daniel I was just listening to Terri’s brother on TV. He restated what I say and added that she had been denied a MRI by her husband. She has never had an MRI which seems strange to me. There are a lot of things that don’t add up, but the judges are going to kill her anyway. Very sad. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/70 "2005-03-24T20:14:01Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Tell me again why we’re supposed to believe you instead of doctors, or indeed anyone who knows what they’re talking about? Just believe anything you want to Marley23. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/71 "2005-03-24T20:20:40Z")
> [@vinryk](#): > > Because she clearly explicitly said to her husband that she wouldn’t want to be kept alive in a situation like this. > This is simply not true. Please research. > So you are saying that the soul can suffer physical pain? > Than why do our souls seem to leave our body, when we are in extreme physical pain? > You are contradicting everything you seem to stand for. > And which God are we talking about? > The Christian God? :rolleyes: Terri’s wishes are unknown. She said nother to her family, she left no writings, we hav only the word of her husband. Which in my opinion is worthless. I am not a Christian For the rest of it believe anything you wish. This is a sad moment in the history of America. She will probably die on Easter Sunday. Maybe her life meant a great deal more than most think. ---
**Author:** ![RowdyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbce88/32.png) [@RowdyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RowdyGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/72 "2005-03-24T20:43:09Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > OK, some more thoughts on the Schiavo case have occured to me. The biggest one being this. > > At what point can we say a person is no longer a living person? > > I’ve seen all sides of the case but keep noticing more and more arguments that Terri is, as one Doper put it, little more than a plush toy. Some of these people demand she die because she’ll never be a thinking, cognitive, intelligent person again. So is that the basis of someone’s worthiness to live? > > From what I understand, in the strict medical sense, she is alive but can’t eat. The feeding tube is what is keeping her alive. Christopher Reeve needed a machine to keep his lungs operating and he was considered a hero. Was the difference that he could demonstrate cognitive thought, and more important, speech? > > How about people in coma’s? Many of them can survive on their own as long as there’s a feeding tube. At what point do we decide that they aren’t getting better and pull the plug? I can tell you. It’s the point where the law is set by precedent that they aren’t going to get better. > > This isn’t about Terri alone, it’s a fight over protecting the lives of those whom can’t decide whether or not to die. This is just the most well-known example used in debate. The difference is, Congress is in a position to write legislation, whereas we’re posting to a message board. But either way there’s debateable points, and I’d hope we take care to consider them in a more careful and less political way. > But my question stands, Should we base a person’s right to a feeding tube based on an I.Q. test? ```auto Hi.. I'd like to offer a different perspective, if I may... Regardless of religious affiliation, when did humans decide it was up to us to decide when and how people would die or live. It seems to me that no one "wants" anyone to be starved to death or to die, but we are mortal and we all will eventually succumb. Isn't this a matter between the person and their "higher power"? It certainly does not belong to the government or theological leaders. In the days before we had the ability to prolong "life" people simply died in peace. there were no wires or tubes or machines forcing our bodies to remain "alive." I witnessed this first-hand. My partner was dying and he and I had agreed not to be put on any type of life support. He was able to slowly slip into a natural slowing of the bodily functions and fade slowly away ... in dignity. And if you do believe in a god, then isn't it up to him/her to decide when the person should be "taken" not some Hillbilly Texas Congressman? I feel sad for all the parties involved, because there is no clear and easy decision, but I know dragging it out on national TV and the public is NOT the way to treat a decent human being. The parents of that poor woman should protect her dignity and let her rest in peace until it is her time to leave this world. Peace to all. ...Rowdy! ``` ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/73 "2005-03-24T21:34:23Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Terri’s wishes are unknown. She said nother to her family, she left no writings, we hav only the word of her husband. As usual, you’re wrong. If only you could get paid for it! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/74 "2005-03-24T21:43:14Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Just believe anything you want to Marley23. Oh, another question you don’t feel like answering. Very persuasive. ---
**Author:** ![Boldface\_Type](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5e925/32.png) [@Boldface\_Type](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boldface_Type)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/75 "2005-03-24T22:34:07Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > She has never had an MRI which seems strange to me. This is the only thing you’ve said in this thread that does make some sense to me. Based on my knowledge of the case (e.g., the CAT scan appearance), an anatomical and/or functional MRI would be likely to provide the husband with yet more evidence that Schiavo’s but a shell[1]. One reason he might be reluctant, I suppose, is if the anatomical showed that a scant portion of grey matter was still extant. This, although insufficient to support consciousness, might nevertheless provide the parents some ammunition. A similar problem might arise with a functional scan - any brain activity would be open to misrepresentation, misinterpretation and obfuscation by the family’s lawyers et al. BfT. [1] Well, apart from her spirit, which has recently set up a small reading room in her lower intestine, allegedly. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/76 "2005-03-24T23:03:18Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Terri’s wishes are unknown. She said nother to her family, That’s a lie. She spoke to her husband, and her husband is her closest family. Nitpick? Sure, because by consistently excluding her husband from her family, you set asunder what God has joined, so to speak. You’ve got a vested ideological interest in this case, and so you’re behaving dishonestly. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/77 "2005-03-24T23:30:13Z")
> [@Boldface Type](#): > > This is the only thing you’ve said in this thread that does make some sense to me. Based on my knowledge of the case (e.g., the CAT scan appearance), an anatomical and/or functional MRI would be likely to provide the husband with yet more evidence that Schiavo’s but a shell[1]. The real issue is that her parents have been unwilling to accept the outcomes of any previous tests, and have basically testified in court that it doesn’t matter to them anyway: they will keep her alive no matter what. So there is plenty of reason to believe that demanding more tests is merely a stalling action. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/78 "2005-03-25T00:03:54Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > That’s a lie. She spoke to her husband, and her husband is her closest family. > > Nitpick? Sure, because by consistently excluding her husband from her family, you set asunder what God has joined, so to speak. You’ve got a vested ideological interest in this case, and so you’re behaving dishonestly. > > Daniel They reported on TV a nurse from the hospice said she heard her husband remark: “When will the bitch die.” As for my interest in the case, you wouldn’t understand in a million years. ---
**Author:** ![Boldface\_Type](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5e925/32.png) [@Boldface\_Type](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boldface_Type)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/79 "2005-03-25T00:04:40Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > The real issue is that her parents have been unwilling to accept the outcomes of any previous tests, > > So there is plenty of reason to believe that demanding more tests is merely a stalling action. Well, yes - and I suggested some problems with accepting more tests in my previous post. Still, I think that for most (impartial) observers, such tests would strengthen the husband’s position, rather than the parents’. Impartial observers? Who am I kidding? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/80 "2005-03-25T00:05:54Z")
> [@Boldface Type](#): > > This is the only thing you’ve said in this thread that does make some sense to me. Based on my knowledge of the case (e.g., the CAT scan appearance), an anatomical and/or functional MRI would be likely to provide the husband with yet more evidence that Schiavo’s but a shell[1]. > > One reason he might be reluctant, I suppose, is if the anatomical showed that a scant portion of grey matter was still extant. This, although insufficient to support consciousness, might nevertheless provide the parents some ammunition. A similar problem might arise with a functional scan - any brain activity would be open to misrepresentation, misinterpretation and obfuscation by the family’s lawyers et al. > > BfT. > > [1] Well, apart from her spirit, which has recently set up a small reading room in her lower intestine, allegedly. And here I thought doctors did the interpretations of the scans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536.md?page=5)