# End of life. Do we need a test? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2005, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536 "2005-03-21T10:11:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/81 "2005-03-25T00:55:01Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > They reported on TV a nurse from the hospice said she heard her husband remark: “When will the bitch die.” This, and the rest of this particular nurse’s testimony, was found to be entirely without credibility. There is no evidence of the abuses that she alleges, and there is no one corroborating what she said. The things she says about Mr. Schiavo are completely at odds with the testimony of pretty much everybody else. Why would you believe her? ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/82 "2005-03-25T00:59:45Z")
My understanding, though it isn’t clear, is that Terri is prevented from having an MRI by the thalamic implants she had placed years ago (one of those therapies that Michael supposedly hasn’t allowed, which he took her to California to have). It doesn’t really matter, anyway; what Terri has is a clinical diagnosis, and that diagnosis has been made. It doesn’t matter what her MRI shows; her clinical picture remains the same, and it is one in which everyone but her parents agrees that she would not have wanted to live in. ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/83 "2005-03-25T02:07:09Z")
No, I don’t think a test is appropriate. Mankind is ill equipped to determine who is worthy enough in their eyes to continue existing on this earth. If we look throughout history, we can plainly see the error of that idea. **lekatt** , I’m also very deeply saddened by what I have witnessed by so many others. It’s a good thing that I don’t place my faith in mankind, but am greatly disheartened by the dismissive, merciless attitudes nonetheless. Nope, no tests, people. And if you applaud the Supreme Court for turning their backs and judges who rule by law alone without regard to the ramifications of an individual, well, where do you think you’ll find compassion when you need it? ---
**Author:** ![Boldface\_Type](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5e925/32.png) [@Boldface\_Type](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boldface_Type)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/84 "2005-03-25T02:21:14Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > My understanding, though it isn’t clear, is that Terri is prevented from having an MRI by the thalamic implants she had placed years ago (one of those therapies that Michael supposedly hasn’t allowed, which he took her to California to have). Ah, I wasn’t aware of that - if the device is magnetic, that would be a … hmm … ‘problem’. Or it could solve the problem… > [@](#): > > It doesn’t really matter, anyway; what Terri has is a clinical diagnosis, and that diagnosis has been made. It doesn’t matter what her MRI shows; her clinical picture remains the same, and it is one in which everyone but her parents agrees that she would not have wanted to live in. Well, in principle a (functional) MRI could provide useful information with which to determine possible consciousness, and any diagnosis should be open to new info. But I agree that everything points to an MRI - even if technically possible - being a fool’s errand, given the particulars of her situation. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/85 "2005-03-25T02:24:11Z")
> [@Edlyn](#): > > And if you applaud the Supreme Court for turning their backs and judges who rule by law alone without regard to the ramifications of an individual, well, where do you think you’ll find compassion when you need it? The people who’ve acted without regards to an individual are in Congres. The law and the people involved have said the same thing over and over again for years. Why is that supposed to be thrown out? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/86 "2005-03-25T03:00:00Z")
> [@Edlyn](#): > > No, I don’t think a test is appropriate. Mankind is ill equipped to determine who is worthy enough in their eyes to continue existing on this earth. If we look throughout history, we can plainly see the error of that idea. > > **lekatt** , I’m also very deeply saddened by what I have witnessed by so many others. It’s a good thing that I don’t place my faith in mankind, but am greatly disheartened by the dismissive, merciless attitudes nonetheless. > > Nope, no tests, people. And if you applaud the Supreme Court for turning their backs and judges who rule by law alone without regard to the ramifications of an individual, well, where do you think you’ll find compassion when you need it? Thanks Edyln, it is very hard for one of compassion to understand such actions, I don’t place any faith in mankind either. It would be impossible to exist as a human being if one did. But I guess they can rejoyce now, while Terri slowly starves to dead, they got what they wanted. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/87 "2005-03-25T03:20:56Z")
> [@Edlyn](#): > > No, I don’t think a test is appropriate. Mankind is ill equipped to determine who is worthy enough in their eyes to continue existing on this earth. SO that means the doctors should stay out of it and kick Mrs Schiavo out of the hospital? Or what? ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/88 "2005-03-25T03:24:28Z")
The intent of Congress was to offer a federal court the opportunity to take a fresh review of what previously occurred in the state courts to see if Terry’s constitutional rights had been violated during the process. You think that’s unreasonable considering a person’s life was at stake? Yea, **lekatt** , I bet I’ll shudder as the news announces her death and feel the “YES!” of satisfaction from others reverberate through me. I think you are right about her impact on others. There’s more to this than we may realize. ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/89 "2005-03-25T03:31:35Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > SO that means the doctors should stay out of it and kick Mrs Schiavo out of the hospital? Or what? Yes, the doctors, courts, and her husband in name only should stay out of it. In such cases with no written proof of intent, Terry’s parents should have guardianship, as they have begged for, to care for her until she dies of her own determination with God. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/90 "2005-03-25T03:42:04Z")
> [@Edlyn](#): > > The intent of Congress was to offer a federal court the opportunity to take a fresh review of what previously occurred in the state courts to see if Terry’s constitutional rights had been violated during the process. And they did, and determined they hadn’t. What exceptions should they make to score political points next? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/91 "2005-03-25T03:44:47Z")
> [@Edlyn](#): > > Yes, the doctors, courts, and her husband in name only should stay out of it. Wouldn’t that have been years ago if th edoctors had stayed out of it? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/92 "2005-03-25T03:49:28Z")
> [@Edlyn](#): > > Yes, the doctors, courts, and her husband in name only should stay out of it. …until she dies of her own determination with God. Wouldn’t she have died years ago except her husband and doctors got involved? ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/93 "2005-03-25T04:02:37Z")
**PatriotX** , I don’t think so. If she didn’t have the will to live, she wouldn’t have survived this long through so much. **Marley** you can keep score. I’ll keep an eye out for brief glimpses of compassion in the world. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/94 "2005-03-25T04:04:58Z")
> [@Edlyn](#): > > **PatriotX** , I don’t think so. If she didn’t have the will to live, she wouldn’t have survived this long through so much. If she could’ve survived w/o medical care and aher feeding tube all this time because of her will to live, why won’t her will to live sustain her now? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/95 "2005-03-25T04:17:32Z")
[Brain Death](http://www.organdonor.gov/glossary.html) - Occurs when a person’s brain activity stops permanently. It is impossible to return to life after brain death. [Brain Stem Death](http://www.uktransplant.org.uk/ukt/transplantation_glossary/transplantation_glossary.jsp) - The phrase used to describe the establishment of death following irreversible destruction of the brain stem. [Brain Death](http://www.geocities.co.jp/Berkeley/1074/e-yougo_btm.html) - Brain death is a clinical diagnosis. Absent brainstem reflexes, failure to initiate respiration when off the respirator, and absent cortical function are accepted criteria of brain death. A flat electroencephalogram for longer than 12 hours (in the absence of hypothermia or sedative drugs) and absence of vascular filling of the cerebral vessels on cerebral angiography corroborate the diagnosis of brain death. [Brain Death](http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/9602.html) - Irreversible cessation of cerebral and brain stem function; characterized by absence of: electrical activity in the brain, blood flow to the brain, and brain function as determined by clinical assessment of responses. A brain dead person is dead, although his or her cardiopulmonary functioning may be artificially maintained for some time. If Terri meets any of the above definitions, then she has been gone for quite a while. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/96 "2005-03-25T04:38:21Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The family had agreed to sponsor Terri, taking on all her experiences and work with her. Why shouldn’t they have that right. Because that right is Terris. You just got through lecturing me about how other people shouldn’t have power to make our decisions for us, and now you’re saying that her parents should get to keep her because they enjoy playing with her? > [@](#): > > Her husband has a new common law wife and kids. Also when the paramedics arrived to aid Terri, they called the police saying it looked like a homicide. > > Did any of this get discussed in court? Yes, it was dismissed as slanderous nonsense, and most of the facts of accusation were false. ---
**Author:** ![Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scoundrel_Swanswater)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/97 "2005-03-25T08:53:12Z")
> [@Edlyn](#): > > **PatriotX** , I don’t think so. If she didn’t have the will to live, she wouldn’t have survived this long through so much. Ding ding ding, and we have a winner… For most stupid assinine comment ever ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/98 "2005-03-25T10:23:12Z")
> [@Edlyn](#): > > If she didn’t have the will to live, she wouldn’t have survived this long through so much. Without a higher brain, she can’t have a will. I’m sure her autonomic functions will keep going as long as they can, that’s what they do. But giving those conscious intent doesn’t make any sense. The closest thing we have to conscious intent is statements Terri Schiavo made years ago that she didn’t want to be kept alive this way. > [@](#): > > **Marley** you can keep score. I’ll keep an eye out for brief glimpses of compassion in the world. 🙂 I don’t know what this means. I’ve seen compassion. I think the compassionate thing to do in this case is let her die. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/99 "2005-03-25T10:46:03Z")
> [@](#): > > **Edlyn** : The intent of Congress was to offer a federal court the opportunity to take a fresh review of what previously occurred in the state courts to see if Terry’s constitutional rights had been violated during the process. > > You think that’s unreasonable considering a person’s life was at stake? **Edlyn** , that happened shortly after midnight Monday morning. Since then, over 16,000 people in the United States have been removed from life support systems such as respirators and feeding tubes. Do you think that it would have been reasonable if Congress had taken up their causes individually to see if their Constitutional right had been violated? Their lives were at stake too. Were their lives less important than Terri’s? Do you know their stories? Did you shudder when they died? What impact did their deaths have on you? Did you know that Terri’s parents said that they would not have respected Terri’s wishes even if they had had guardianship? Did you know that Terri’s parents, until a few years ago, had said that Michael and Terri had a wonderful marriage and that Terri was “madly in love with him”? Did you know that Michael took nurses’ training in order to better care for Terri? Were you aware that others besides Michael had heard Terri express a wish not to be kept alive under such circumstances and that they testified to that in court? Are you aware that Michael and Terri’s parents took Terri to California to try a procedure that might help to restore some of her abilities? Don’t you think that if Michael were terribly selfish, he would have taken the ten million dollars offered to him, released guardianship to his in-laws, divorced Terri and married the mother of his children? Can you think of any reason that he would deny himself that happiness? Could it be loyalty to Terri? Is there any chance that politicians are using this issue to manipulate the Religious Right? Is there any chance that the leaders of the Religious Right are using this issue to manipulate Congress and the laws of this country? Is it possible that as technology continues to develop, we will soon reach the point where the human body can be kept in a living state _forever_ until someone or some system of justice has the mercy to release it? > [@](#): > > **Edlyn** : Yea, **lekatt** , I bet I’ll shudder as the news announces her death and feel the “YES!” of satisfaction from others reverberate through me. Is it possible that you may be judging too harshly and that it isn’t wise to judge the motives and feelings of others as being certainties? ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536/100 "2005-03-25T13:08:21Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > If she could’ve survived w/o medical care and aher feeding tube all this time because of her will to live, why won’t her will to live sustain her now? A person’s body needs fluids and nutrition to remain functional and support life. Judge Greer not only ruled that the feeding tube be removed but also ruled that fluids and nutrition be withheld orally. Not even an ice chip for her parched mouth. She does have the ability to swallow, but her loving, dedicated Michael has not permitted therapy for her to relearn how to eat. [Guardianship Case March 8, 2005](http://www.terrisfight.net/documents/030805orderdenyfood.pdf) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-life-do-we-need-a-test/295536.md?page=6)