# End of the 20th Century world order? What next? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2025, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-20th-century-world-order-what-next/1017841 "2025-05-04T00:36:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-20th-century-world-order-what-next/1017841/41 "2025-05-20T13:45:43Z")
I argued in this thread from 2008 that we are seeing an emergence of a multi-polar world order, one in which powers are able to exert power in regions, but not as a global hegemon in the way the US did. “By diminished status I mean that we are exiting a period when the US was an important actor across virtually every region of the world. We are entering a multi-polar world where regional powers are exerting greater influence into arenas where the US had previously had more sway. Using China as an example, political conflicts are not only inevitable, but happening now. China owns a great deal of our debt and the absence of a Soviet counter weight gives China greater freedome to stretch its infuence at the expense of US power/prestige. It is clear that the EU, India, China, blocs in South America are all working to fill political space previously held by the US. There have been a number of global initiatives on the environment, and proliferation at which the US was virtually non-participatory. Culturally, the American brand is an all time low. While we suffered a similar diminished brand after Vietnam, this time I believe it is different. I believe this because we lost Vietnam in the context of the cold war. It was still a bi-polar world and Vietnam did not fundamentally change that. The current period of realignment was inevitable with the dissolution of the Soviet Union. New blocs were bound to form, but the US has made a number of catasrophic choices in the post cold war era that have greatly weakened our positon: 1) rejection of climate change, has alienated even our closest allies, and cut us off from scientific dialogue and innovation; 2) the lack of universal health care has made our industries uncompetitive, we can no longer compete with foreign firms that do not have to pay employee health insurance; 3) refusal to pursue new energy sources and embrace lifestyle change that is not automotive relient; and 4) the invasion of Iraq, which has done great harm to the democratization of the world and as I said, diminished the US brand. I believe that this has done permanent harm, democracy in many corners of the world is seen as nothing but a tool of American imperialism, we have destroyed space in the Muslim world for pro-western and democratizing forces, who are now seen as nothing more than tools of America. In my opinion, America’s soft power had always been more effective than it’s economic and military might and this resource was squandered. I do not believe we can regain it because in our new mulit-polar world, there are too many forces that will quickly move in to occupy the space we once inhabited.” > [@What will be the biggest issues for the next President to deal with?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-be-the-biggest-issues-for-the-next-president-to-deal-with/438528): > > And how would Obama and McCain deal with them differently? The economy is unlikely to have recovered by next year and place of America in the world’s economic order is flux. I do not see any President have any great ideas here. Global warming. Obama is more likely to have cap and trade be entirely auctioned and to participate in global agreements, but really not much difference here. International affairs. Iraq has been well covered in many threads and related to that is that I think Obama wo… ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-20th-century-world-order-what-next/1017841/42 "2025-05-20T13:48:10Z")
> We need to get lucky and have modern day versions of people like FDR, Nelson Mandela, Mikhail Gorbachev, etc. to win elections the world over. They’re out there, but political parties are willfully ignoring them, concentrating on “business as usual”, which ain’t gonna work. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-20th-century-world-order-what-next/1017841/43 "2025-05-20T13:56:13Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > The current period of realignment was inevitable with the dissolution of the Soviet Union. New blocs were bound to form, but the US has made a number of catasrophic choices in the post cold war era that have greatly weakened our positon: 1) rejection of climate change, has alienated even our closest allies, and cut us off from scientific dialogue and innovation; 2) the lack of universal health care has made our industries uncompetitive, we can no longer compete with foreign firms that do not have to pay employee health insurance; 3) refusal to pursue new energy sources and embrace lifestyle change that is not automotive relient; and 4) the invasion of Iraq, which has done great harm to the democratization of the world and as I said, diminished the US brand. I believe that this has done permanent harm, democracy in many corners of the world is seen as nothing but a tool of American imperialism, we have destroyed space in the Muslim world for pro-western and democratizing forces, who are now seen as nothing more than tools of America. > > In my opinion, America’s soft power had always been more effective than it’s economic and military might and this resource was squandered. I do not believe we can regain it because in our new mulit-polar world, there are too many forces that will quickly move in to occupy the space we once inhabited.” I’m not a believer in the idea that these things are inevitable due to cultural forces / political forces / economic forces / whatever forces. I really believe that had we been luckier, and had Al Gore won in 2000 (and 2004), Hillary Clinton won in 2016 (and 2020), and Kamala Harris (or any other sensible Democrat) won in 2024, the United States would still be the global hegemon, in a good way, and going as strong as ever. Bush Jr. messed up due to not knowing better, and Trump is purposely knocking down the old order due to his being an asshole, but it didn’t have to happen that way. ETA: Now that things are messed up, we are going to need extraordinary leaders to drag us out of the mess. But had things not gotten messed up to begin with, we would have been fine if all the leaders had been “business as usual” leaders like we had with Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, and Joe Biden. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-20th-century-world-order-what-next/1017841/44 "2025-05-20T14:05:23Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I’m not a believer in the idea that these things are inevitable due to cultural forces / political forces / economic forces / whatever forces. I really believe that had we been luckier, and had Al Gore won in 2000 (and 2004), Hillary Clinton won in 2016 (and 2020), and Kamala Harris (or any other sensible Democrat) won in 2024, the United States would still be the global hegemon, in a good way, and going as strong as ever. I don’t think I said it was fate, or inevitable, but by 2008, it was obvious that America’s power was fading and we consistently made catastrophically bad choices (and continue to do so). I don’t believe our previous status is now attainable and attempting to get it back will only lead to more ruin. I think that collapse is our best hope and that the more developed parts of the US will have to build a new nation, cutting loose the rest. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-20th-century-world-order-what-next/1017841/45 "2025-05-20T14:10:58Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I don’t think I said it was fate, or inevitable, but by 2008, it was obvious that America’s power was fading and we consistently made catastrophically bad choices (and continue to do so). I don’t believe our previous status is now attainable and attempting to get it back will only lead to more ruin. I agree that the US will almost certainly not regain its previous status. But I do hope that whatever emerges, whether that be a world with China as the new Great Power, or a few competing regional powers, or something else, that the overall focus of human civilization be focused on the betterment of humanity as a whole. And yes, despite our many mistakes, I think that the US and the western world as a whole did work towards that during the 1945 - 2016 time period. ETA: My apologies for implying that you were arguing that our decline was inevitable. I assumed that because I typically see that hypothesis advanced as the alternative to the “great man / woman” (or anti-great as the case may be) hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-20th-century-world-order-what-next/1017841/46 "2025-05-20T14:15:17Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > I agree that the US will almost certainly not regain its previous status. But I do hope that whatever emerges, whether that be world with China as the new Great Power, or a few competing regional powers, or something else, that the overall focus of human civilization be focused on the betterment of humanity as a whole. And yes, despite our many mistakes, I think that the US and the western world as a whole did work towards that during the 1945 - 2016 time period. I think America’s collapse is very similar to the collapse of the Soviet Union, in that both nations were built on unsustainable economic models (radical crony capitalism and radical crony communism) and that these economic models were so entrenched in the culture of the nations that it became unthinkable to reform them. In fact, you have the working poor using violence to defend the interests of billionaires in America. That’s just not a sustainable model. I hope that the western democracies quickly realize that the US is a lost cause and take on the task of preserving democracy in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-20th-century-world-order-what-next/1017841/47 "2025-05-20T14:22:42Z")
Read “The Book of Revelation” purportedly written by an apostle named John. I think it has some hints in it. LOL ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-20th-century-world-order-what-next/1017841/48 "2025-05-20T14:24:42Z")
No apology necessary. I didn’t take offense. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2025, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-20th-century-world-order-what-next/1017841/49 "2025-05-20T16:31:28Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Lol this isn’t the Turner Diaries Der Not yet. But _The Turner Diaries_ are the ideal that the people now running the country are striving for. They _want_ their Day of the Rope, and their genocidal wars. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-20th-century-world-order-what-next/1017841.md?page=2)