# End of the movie "Dogma" -- UNBOXED SPOILERS **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 4, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-movie-dogma-unboxed-spoilers/329404 "2005-11-04T02:33:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-movie-dogma-unboxed-spoilers/329404/1 "2005-11-04T02:33:31Z")
. . . . . . . . . . .I’ve watched “Dogma” more times than I care to admit. My take is that Bartleby got to go to heaven, since he became a human _and_ repented of his sins just before Alanis Morisette blew his head off. But what about Loki? Did he go to hell because he wasn’t explicitly forgiven before he was killed, or did he go to heaven because he clearly disagreed with Bartleby’s bloodbath and willingness to destroy the universe? Discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-movie-dogma-unboxed-spoilers/329404/2 "2005-11-04T02:44:12Z")
Heal my idiocy, mods – is there any way to disguise that GIANT spoiler I just did by not filling up the early lines of my OP with innocuous filler? I don’t usually post OPs. and I’m NEVER in Cafe Society, so I screwed up royally. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-movie-dogma-unboxed-spoilers/329404/3 "2005-11-04T03:27:39Z")
They couldn’t go to Heaven. If they went to Heaven, then they would have circumvented God’s decree, therefore disproving God’s infallibility, and unravelling all existance. (Nevermind that God is arguably not infallible in the OT, or that an insincere repentance wouldn’t count by Catholic dogma, or that God could have pulled another “sacrifice myself to myself” type of super-legal loophole out of Her omniscient/omnipotent ass. If such a thing were possible, they would have mentioned it) My best guess is that Loki was annihiliated utterly. He simply doesn’t exist anymore. Bartleby goes to whereever dead mortals go before their souls are judged, and will likely get the same treatment now that God’s back in the saddle. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-movie-dogma-unboxed-spoilers/329404/4 "2005-11-04T05:27:20Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > They couldn’t go to Heaven. If they went to Heaven, then they would have circumvented God’s decree, therefore disproving God’s infallibility, and unraveling all existence. It’d possible though I’d assume for god to revoke her own decree. > [@](#): > > My best guess is that Loki was annihilated utterly. He simply doesn’t exist anymore. Bartleby goes to wherever dead mortals go before their souls are judged, and will likely get the same treatment now that God’s back in the saddle. Why would Loki be destroyed? He was ‘human’ when he died and had a soul if Bartleby was correct at all in his theory. My guess is that Loki ended up in purgatory or limbo and Bartleby went to some version of hell unless god decided to revoke her own decree. ---
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-movie-dogma-unboxed-spoilers/329404/5 "2005-11-04T08:12:21Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > They couldn’t go to Heaven. If they went to Heaven, then they would have circumvented God’s decree, therefore disproving God’s infallibility, and unravelling all existance. I don’t know if it would be circumventing God’s decree if s/he just changed her mind and forgave them, though. (As opposed to Loki and Bartleby walking through the arch, which would be a wilful flaunting of the decree.) ---
**Author:** ![Phnord\_Prephect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/df705f/32.png) [@Phnord\_Prephect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phnord_Prephect)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-movie-dogma-unboxed-spoilers/329404/6 "2005-11-04T09:05:42Z")
Perhaps an argument could be made that the ANGELS Bartleby and Loki would never enter Heaven, but that as mortals they’re different people, and therefore the decree that ‘they’ would never enter Heaven was, in fact, kept, even though ‘they’ both did, in fact, enter Heaven. That, or they both went to Hell, which is my personal interpretation. I think they’d like hanging with Azrael better than the Metatron anyway. And they’d get to hang out with Jay and Silent Bob some more, ‘cuz there’s just no way THOSE two are goin’ to Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![FisherQueen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@FisherQueen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FisherQueen)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-movie-dogma-unboxed-spoilers/329404/7 "2005-11-04T12:36:01Z")
I saw the end of the movie as being a direct reference to grace, the most important of Christian dogmas and the one that the movie would appear otherwise not to mention. Loki never really did anything because he believed in it, right or wrong. We have no indication that he loved God. He lets Bartleby talk him into doing stuff, and so he does it. Under the terms of the law, when he dies, he goes to Hell. Bartleby, though, talks about how much he loved God, what a betrayal it was to be separated from her. What he does, he does out of that love, and out of the rage and grief of being denied that love. So when at last he meets God again, he says “I’m sorry,” for all of the things that he did- unlike Loki, he understands the wrong he has done. And when he looks into her eyes, he sees forgiveness and grace, and maybe he realizes that was all he had to do, just understand that he did wrong, apologize, and mean it. The gift of grace- forgiveness of everything- is God’s to give. That’s the center of the Christian faith. Kevin Smith knows that, and I don’t think he just forgot to mention it in his movie. Loki is amoral, informed by rules alone, and so, when he does terrible things, he goes to Hell. Bartleby is guided by love, not law, and so, when he does terrible things, he is able to request and be granted forgiveness, and go to Heaven. The climax, which might seem obscure on first viewing, is Christian dogma in a nutshell. If Smith were here, he’d say I’m right. Well, actually, he’d say something vague about how everyone has to decide what it means for herself, but he’d know I was right. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-movie-dogma-unboxed-spoilers/329404/8 "2005-11-04T12:41:23Z")
Moderator suggestion: **Tenar** , just a reminder: when the mouse-pointer-thingie moves over the thread title on the forum page, you can see the first couple of lines of the first post. This is handy for helping decide whether you want to read the thread. However, it means that spoilers in the OP can be inadvertently revealed. So, I’ve pushed your text lower, to avoid that prob. (BTW, thanks for having the thread title be specific and clear about open spoilers!) ---
**Author:** ![Tenar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@Tenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenar)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-movie-dogma-unboxed-spoilers/329404/9 "2005-11-04T12:45:47Z")
> [@FisherQueen](#): > > If Smith were here, he’d say I’m right. Well, actually, he’d say something vague about how everyone has to decide what it means for herself, but he’d know I was right. Are you talking about _ **belief** _ here? 😉 I am intrigued by the diversity of opinion. I’ve never been really sure if Smith _intended_ the outcome to be so vague, or if he was a lousy storyteller. I assume it’s the former, since the rest of the story works so well (BTW – I am not a fan of any of his other movies.) Loki may be motivated by Law (except when Bartleby leads him astray, of course), but he does develop a conscience once his wings are gone, so I rather feel sorry for him if he doesn’t get to be redeemed. He may not have had the brains (or the opportunity) to say “I’m sorry,” but he did try to stand up against Bartleby in the end, in his own ineffectual way. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-movie-dogma-unboxed-spoilers/329404/10 "2005-11-04T13:19:00Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > My best guess is that Loki was annihiliated utterly. He simply doesn’t exist anymore. Bartleby goes to whereever dead mortals go before their souls are judged, and will likely get the same treatment now that God’s back in the saddle. I’d almost reverse that last paragraph. However, I thought they both became human & therefore went to the Holding Place (the Paradisial side of Sheol-Hades). ---
**Author:** ![Firebringer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f04885/32.png) [@Firebringer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Firebringer)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-movie-dogma-unboxed-spoilers/329404/11 "2005-11-04T13:52:50Z")
> [@Phnord Prephect](#): > > I think they’d like hanging with Azrael better than the Metatron anyway. And they’d get to hang out with Jay and Silent Bob some more, ‘cuz there’s just no way THOSE two are goin’ to Heaven. But then weren’t Jay and Silent Bob both ‘Prophets’ 😃 My take on it was that Loki was destroyed utterly. As for Bartelby however I can’t really make my mind up on that one. Part of me thinks he was forgiven and would have gone to heaven but I’m uncertain if that is what is being implied or if it’s just my wishful interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-movie-dogma-unboxed-spoilers/329404/12 "2005-11-04T15:33:33Z")
Kevin Smith is known to surf the net, so maybe he’ll be incredibly bored and pop in to discuss this himself. He’s done it before on Rotten Tomatoes, I think. Even used his real name with an awesome link for a doubter after a particularly heated exchange.