# End of the Road (map for peace) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2004, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116 "2004-04-15T05:05:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/61 "2004-04-16T11:12:25Z")
> [@lavenderlemon](#): > > The Palestinian, European and Muslim definition of “just, fair and realistic solution,” seems to be the end of Israel as a state, something neither Americans nor Israelis would agree is either fair or realistic. Utter BS. Please show any evidence that the EU has ever proposed or defended “the end of Israel as a state”. ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/62 "2004-04-16T11:34:18Z")
Thank you Sailor you just beat me to it. This type of accusation is typical strawman tactics used against any criticism of Israel, on a par with the repeated accusations that the PLO have never recognised that right of Israel to exist. Now some might have a beef with the defined Jewish nature of the state, just as some of the opposite side of the political spectrum have a problem with predominately Muslim populated states incorporating the Muslim nature of their state into the constitution. Some (myself included) have a problem with both. Few would have any problem with a Jewish National Home, as originally was the proposal, but the process which led from that concept to a Jewish State is what has led to the current impasse. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **lavenderlemon** > _As for the OP, I would like to see the Muslims and Europeans put the same pressure on the Palestinians they expect Americans to put on the Israelis_. I would be happy to have pressure put on those who are illegal occupiers of my property, I would be upset my attempts to evict them should be subject to the same level of sanctions. Of course if I go around to the occupiers families place and attack them instead - then I am in the wrong too and everyone loses. Ad infinitum. The proposed Geneva accord is nearest thing to a fair settlement that might actually work that has ever been put on the table. The fact that both sides reject it, whilst their populations support it, is a strong indicator that there is something in it to build on. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/63 "2004-04-16T12:29:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The basic rule of business negotiations is that you negotiate with what you have, not with what you deserve. We have the Territories. That’s what we’re offering. The Palestinians have the capacity to make life unpleasant for the Israelis. > [@](#): > > So please - stop this nonsense about “rights” or “legalities”. They’re not relevant in the game of nations, and they never have been. Some of us believe a better world is possible, where peoples and nations respect certain rules which make peace possible but you say might makes right and whatever you can get by any means is yours while you can keep it. This is the greatest apology of terrorism I can think of. It seems to me you and the Palestinians just want to continue fighting so I guess GWB just did you a favor because this step makes peace more difficult and makes violence more likely. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/64 "2004-04-16T13:16:59Z")
So not only are we further distancing ourselves from the rest of the world, we are alienating our last big ally: > **[Spurned Blair in plea to Bush](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2004/apr/16/usa.israel)** > > Prime minister urges US president to restore 'even-handed' approach over Middle East peace. I am sure this is going to go over great with Blair when he is completley ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/65 "2004-04-16T13:46:07Z")
> [@flight](#): > > So not only are we further distancing ourselves from the rest of the world, we are alienating our last big ally: > > [Spurned Blair in plea to Bush | Politics | The Guardian](http://politics.guardian.co.uk/foreignaffairs/story/0,11538,1193134,00.html) > > I am sure this is going to go over great with Blair when he is completley ignored. BUSH: Well, Tony, it’s like this. You’re either with us or you’re against us. Can’t wait for this to play out. Freedom muffins. Freedom sheepdogs. The official language of the US becomes “Freedom”. High school language departments become “Freedom” departments. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/66 "2004-04-16T14:25:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I thought the analysis by Billmon of the The other thing I want to know is, what does it take for Colin Powell to rediscover his manhood and resign in protest? You _know_ he had to be against this one [You _know_ a lot of things.](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/16/international/middleeast/16shar.html) > [@](#): > > On Monday night, as he was preparing to leave for Washington, Mr. Sharon became worried that Arab and European pressure was causing the Americans to soften language that the Israelis had negotiated with them for three months, said Raanan Gissin, Mr. Sharon’s spokesman. He said Mr. Sharon had delayed his departure by two hours. > > “He said that after three months, if it wasn’t finalized then he wasn’t going,” Mr. Gissin said. “That sort of insinuated threat brought about the conclusion of the final statement.” He credited Secretary of State Colin L. Powell with helping to resolve the dispute. ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/67 "2004-04-16T15:27:34Z")
So all Sharon had to do was _delay_ his departure by _two hours_? OK so he thought he had a deal, taking three months to negotiate, and wanted it delivered on. Meanwhile Blair gets Bush to commit to the internationally agreed “roadmap”, OK takes him over a year not three months by, hell, he is not popular with the American public - not Sharon anyway. :rolleyes: **Question** : anyone want to guess how long with Tony have to delay his flight back by to get Bush to deliver on his commitment? Something tells me he might have to overrun his visa… So \*\*Tony \*\* - what lesson can you take from all this? How much influence do you think all your arse-licking, all your bridge building between Europe and America, has got you? Shit - why not just incorporate Israel as a State in the Union and have done with it. How many electoral college votes do you think their current influence on US policy making translate into - how about 45 (@145,000 pop/vote)??? Sound about right? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/68 "2004-04-16T18:24:24Z")
I remember a year ago some people were having wet dreams that the Iraqis would welcome the Americans with open arms, Iraq would become a beacon of democracy in the region and leaders of those countries would submit to the US without protest. Instead things are getting more fucked up by the day. > [@](#): > > [http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20040416-0818-mideast-mubarak.html](http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20040416-0818-mideast-mubarak.html) > > Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak described himself as shocked by President Bush’s endorsement of an Israeli initiative to keep major parts of the West Bank and said it may lead to increased Middle East violence, according to an interview published Friday. > > “Now we don’t know what is going to happen,” Mubarak told the Houston Chronicle. “I’m afraid there is going to be more escalation of tension, much more violence.” ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/69 "2004-04-16T19:43:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Because they’re losing. You would empathise with a Palestinian decision to continue the Intifada in the light of what has happened then? ---
**Author:** ![kezami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eb8c5e/32.png) [@kezami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kezami)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/70 "2004-04-16T20:35:07Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > You would empathise with a Palestinian decision to continue the Intifada in the light of what has happened then? Is that an example of a rhetorical question? ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/71 "2004-04-16T20:43:19Z")
> [@Henry B](#): > > The land is grabbed, stolen. Do you feel the same way about Jordan taking Palestinian land? ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/72 "2004-04-16T20:54:17Z")
> [@kezami](#): > > Is that an example of a rhetorical question? No, it’s more of an actual question. **Alessan** is rather confusing me. My previous question: > [@](#): > > Both of these quotes imply that, as the Palestinians are ‘negotiating’ from a position of weakness, they cannot expect an equitable agreement. How can this send any message to the Palestinians other than that they had better keep fighting and try to gain more of a position of strength before going to the negotiating table? was answered with: > [@](#): > > Because they’re losing The clear implication is that, if the Palestinians want any kind of equitable agreement then they have to ‘stop losing’. As this is framed in a military sense, this would have to involve scaling up the Intifada and pushing Israel to a point where they are willing to ‘give up’ more. I’m having trouble squaring this with **Alessan’s** previous comments though. ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/73 "2004-04-16T21:12:49Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > The clear implication is that, if the Palestinians want any kind of equitable agreement then they have to ‘stop losing’. Or they could focus on cutting their losses and stop fighting. Not saying they should, just that they could. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/74 "2004-04-16T22:41:00Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > > [@Alessan](#): > > > > They’re losing > > The clear implication is that, if the Palestinians want any kind of equitable agreement then they have to ‘stop losing’. As this is framed in a military sense, this would have to involve scaling up the Intifada and pushing Israel to a point where they are willing to ‘give up’ more. Maybe I don’t know enough about the situation but it seems to me that the Palestinians have _never_ won anything through military vetures against Isreal. It seems to me that over the last 10 years the Palestinian position has eroded steadily, in no small part because of they’re refusal to abandon military efforts. This is especially true, it seems to me, in the last 4 years or so where the two sides have essentially devolved into a shoving matching. The Palestinians today have no military capabilities such that they can defeat Isreal. Isreal, on the other hand, could destroy the Palestinians in a long weekend and still have plenty left for the followup wars with the rest of their neighbors, without a single plea of US assistance. That being the case, I can’t see how it could possibly be logical for the Palestinians to ratchet up their military attempts and hope to hit that sweet spot where they annoy the Isrealis enough to get consessions but not so that much that they provoke a true military response. The Palestinians need a Gandhi. And it needs to be one of their own. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe the Palestinians have had actual victories result from their attacks but to me they look like John Cleese hopping around on one leg and no arms, shouting ‘right! I’ll do you for that!!’ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/75 "2004-04-17T04:01:37Z")
Or else they’re so desparate (the Palestinians) that they figure they have nothing left to lose. Now THAT’S a sobering thought. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/76 "2004-04-17T05:50:51Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Or else they’re so desparate (the Palestinians) that they figure they have nothing left to lose. > > Now THAT’S a sobering thought. Yes, but maybe not for Israel. Kamikaze dedication doesn’t always bring what you think it will. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2004, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/77 "2004-04-17T06:41:43Z")
> [@](#): > > The Palestinians need a Gandhi. And it needs to be one of their own I agree. But that won’t be enough on it’s own if the US is not willing to be the ‘honest broker’ that they promissed to be. ---
**Author:** ![Henry\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d78d45/32.png) [@Henry\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry_B)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/78 "2004-04-20T07:22:36Z")
> [@zwaldd](#): > > Do you feel the same way about Jordan taking Palestinian land? Naturally I am for the international law that says that nothing can be stolen from another country. It does not matter wich country. By legalizing this grabbing, stealing, whatever we call it, gives the same “right” to other countries. It is very dangerous for the small countries, as my countrys history shows. The question is: Should we solve these problems in this world internationally or by strong-arm tactics? Personally I believe that there will be a major war within my life-time. We should think of this possibility beforehand, not only when we are at the brink. As I see we now are. Henry ---
**Author:** ![godamajin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/97f17d/32.png) [@godamajin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godamajin)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116/79 "2004-04-20T08:22:15Z")
Look Im going to try to be objective. I must start out with one question. It seems to me Israel has genuine rights to avenge, but to strike down the leader of Hamas, then strike down the leader of Hamas again is playing with fire. I am also an American and I don’t in any way see the need for Israel to assassinate this man during a summit with Bush and Sharon. WTF are they trying to imply? That we green light attacks. I also dont like the assumption from the Palestinian people and their seemingly misguided logic. Its as if we attacked them ourselves. Hey, if Peter Hits paul with the ball of Gall who should you call the fault its all. I think its too late for the Leaders in some of these states. I mean for decades they watched this circus evolve and all the while banking hundreds of billions of dollars of oil revenue. For what? The people are worse of disconnected and they blame the U.S its a shame. I think the communication insane. Look they are certainly just with suspicion with the European track record of Liberation not in good condition. But look at the positive side. Of what might happen when a people perceive extinction in one night. They might come togetther as one like the tribes of Germania did from the Roman sack. None of the Arabs truelly seem to me to be consistant with their own efforts to satisfy the solution in Israel. Look at the paradox. The Palestinians seek leadership to one end. We all know what that is and I reffer to what happens when a people face extinction. The Israelis know exactly and you see that again and again. I tell you there is no tougher people than those in that fight. The Palestinians are proud and birthrite. But who acts of a nation is of a nation and only then will I as American Honor their plight. I ask then that during this fight, the Palestinians Dress for the task and Uniform their Soldiers to put allegiance and recognition for their task. I think that when that happens you then become respectable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-of-the-road-map-for-peace/240116.md?page=3)