# End the US de facto ban on horse slaughterhouses **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2011, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719 "2011-10-25T07:03:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/41 "2011-10-25T23:49:55Z")
The Rock is Newfinlan, on t’other side. Sent with my fat fingers using Tapatalk. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/42 "2011-10-26T00:06:37Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > What is The Rock, Vancouver Island? I’m assuming because it’s an island and Vancouver is the very model of Soviet Canuckistan-ishness, though I prefer Victoria. I’ve heard Newfoundland referred to as “the Rock” while on the other side of Canada, Vancouver Island is referred to as [“de rock”](http://www.tourderock.ca/) We don’t harvest seals around here on Vancouver Island. Associating Vancouver Island with Vancouver must be like associating Manhattan with Jersey. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/43 "2011-10-26T00:10:57Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > PM me and I’ll send you some, if you like. Thankyou for your generous offer, but I think I’ll decline. I don’t like meat with lots of fat on it . ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/44 "2011-10-26T00:24:43Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > You may not like cats, and that’s fine. I’ve got nothing against cats. Its just that I don’t believe dogs are so special that no other species can compare. They made a bargain with us many millenia ago. We feed them and they’ll be our bitches. They love being our slaves and place a tremendous effort in understanding us. Ever notice how they constantly make eye contact with us? To read us. Go ahead, try to make eye contact with your cat. To turn these dogs into meat animals is a betrayal of the historic bargain. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/45 "2011-10-26T01:19:21Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Due to my status as an immigrant to Canada and the Rock, and as I am also married to a Newfoundlander, I am required to ask where she or he is from. Gander. We’re contemplating a move to Newfoundland, and I’m surprisingly comfortable with the idea. I say surprisingly because it’s about as unlike New York City as anywhere I can imagine where they speak English. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/46 "2011-10-26T01:43:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > By the same rationale, shouldn’t we make the same allowance for dog slaughterhouses? No. The _policy_ issues are very different for horses and dogs. I’ll get to philosophical issues in a moment. Horses are expensive to keep up, while dogs are relatively cheap. Hence, the horse regulations impose a greater burden on admittedly a small sliver of the population. That’s the supply side. On the demand side, I know of no evidence of excess demand for dogs in [dog eating countries](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_meat) like China, Vietnam and parts of Switzerland. I doubt whether international dog trade would be a big money spinner. It is likely that the change in horse regulations has led to a decline in animal welfare. I can’t see how dog slaughterhouses would increase dog welfare, mainly because of lack of international demand. Furthermore our culture’s attachment to dogs is far greater than its attachment to horses: dog slaughterhouse’s would lead to much greater consternation, a factor which a utilitarian such as myself takes into account. Now there are policy answers to all of the above: a case can be made for dog slaughterhouses. For example, we euthanize thousands of dogs yearly: maybe it might make sense to get a return on this activity if it’s going to happen anyway. I’m not advocating this: I’m just trying to stress that the policy issues are very different. Philosophically there are similarities of course. If I was in China, I would not eat dog, horse or even whale. And I acknowledge the legitimacy of those who wish to ban horse slaughterhouses for sentimental reasons. I’m just saying that a) their policy has led to a decline in horse welfare and b) I’d rather rollback the regulation than spend the resources to make the horse-protection program work properly. **Specifics matter. Cost benefit analysis is preferable to appeals to alleged principle.** Finally: policy trumps philosophy. Libertarians and Joe Public often confuses the two: they misapply principles rather than devote some study to the specifics of the issue. I favor a more pragmatic stance. I’m not just bashing here: I think the distinction between a cost-benefit-measurement approach and one where gut instincts are disguised with pompous but surprisingly flexible principle is a valid and important one. I’m not against horse slaughterhouse bans because of “Freedom” or even “Jobs jobs jobs”. I’m against it because I place a low moral weight on killing individual nonprimates and because the ban hasn’t worked well. The latter has a pronounced empirical component. > [@Beware of Doug](#): > > ``` > Is the beef lobby at all active about keeping horsemeat out of the food system? > > ``` I dunno, but I doubt it. I haven’t heard of bans being pushed for other niche products such as emu, bison or rabbit. Nor have I heard reports of the beef industry feeling threatened by the horse slaughterhouses that existed prior to 2007. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/47 "2011-10-26T01:51:12Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Horses, cats, dogs, rats, bats, etc.. As long as an animal is not endangered and the breeding/slaughtering is done humanely I see no reason why there should be any prohibition in this country against their meat being commercially available. Well, dog and cat slaughterhouses would freak people out and I for one would rather avoid the drama. And primates arguably deserve individual protection, beyond that which we would extend to an [endangered species](http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/15933/0). Not that you claimed otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/48 "2011-10-26T02:18:55Z")
No dog cat or horse in this food fight but: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sapient means being wise, not simply being able to act with thought. It would be anthropomorphizing to say a non-human animal is “wise”. > **[sapience](https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Sapience)** > > Definition, Synonyms, Translations of sapience by The Free Dictionary Noun 1. sapience - ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight Demonstrating problem solving in novel situations would satisfy that, which some animals have. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/49 "2011-10-26T02:56:08Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I’ve got nothing against cats. Its just that I don’t believe dogs are so special that no other species can compare. > > They made a bargain with us many millenia ago. We feed them and they’ll be our bitches. They love being our slaves and place a tremendous effort in understanding us. Ever notice how they constantly make eye contact with us? To read us. Go ahead, try to make eye contact with your cat. > > To turn these dogs into meat animals is a betrayal of the historic bargain. I make eye contact with my cat all the time, but she trusts me, and seems to have learned humans don’t have the best manors but mean well. Eye contact is normally the middle finger of the cat world. Ever see two cats about to have a fight? Nothing but eye contact. However a cat that knows you’re not aggressive and trusts you will be okay with eye contact. Cat’s have their own ways of relating to humans. A cat laying on it’s back is a trust gesture. A gentle headbutt is a sign of affection. Rubbing up against you is some weird feline blend of affection and possessiveness. Purring is a sign of strong emotion, be it happiness, pain, fear, etc. It’s the feline equivalent of crying. Cats have been with us long enough. They’re the original mouse trap. Dogs kept the house safe, but cats kept the grain safe. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/50 "2011-10-26T03:23:41Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > However equating a horse to a cow is showing ignorance about both. Horses can negotiate complex courses jumping high fences with a kid you love on their backs. Cows, not so much. [Riding](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4WtxKoal-c&feature=related) [cows](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FepnS3LC3k&feature=related) ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/51 "2011-10-26T03:29:35Z")
Let’s not disrespect the Comanche and other Great Plains Indians that prized their horseflesh. In many ways, eating horse is an American tradition. Frankly, all these horse lovers should take a page out of the Mongolian playbook and start marketing fermented mares milk. Could be getting in at the ground level of the next microbrewery type explosion. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/52 "2011-10-26T05:23:39Z")
Here’s a roundup of internet articles, courtesy of google news. Miami Herald: “Miami-Dade police are investigating a slaughtered bay brown thoroughbred horse found legless and with her heart cut out beside a road in Northwest Miami-Dade, an area investigators say is notorious for the illegal selling of horse meat.” Read more: [http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/10/21/2465838/horse-slaughter-in-miami-dade.html#ixzz1brRPBda6](http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/10/21/2465838/horse-slaughter-in-miami-dade.html#ixzz1brRPBda6) No explanation of how a horse abandoned on the side of the road could have been re-purposed for the dinner table. :dubious: Maybe it was only for its heart. Or maybe the horse was abandoned to save on upkeep. Seventy illegal slaughterhouses were closed in Florida in 2009, and recent laws impose criminal penalties for the practice. I opine that it would be better to kill these horses humanely than to subject them to illegal and unregulated slaughter operations. I’ll also observe that the cost of shipping these horses to Mexico or Canada is possibly prohibitive. Then again according to [food safety news](http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/10/horse-slaughter-issue-wont-go-away/) horseflesh sells for $40 a pound in Florida. The Feds and the states are moving in opposite directions. “Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-LA, and Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-SC, have introduced S.B. 1176, which would prohibit the sale or transport of horses or equine parts in interstate or foreign commerce with intent of processing for human consumption.” But Arkansas, Montana, Nebraska and North Dakota are considering setting up a state-run inspection system, which I guess could undo the _de facto_ federal ban. Slate’s [Explainer column](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/explainer/2011/10/slaughtering_horses_for_meat_is_banned_in_the_u_s_why_.html) covered the issue: [ul] [li]In parts of Europe, horsemeat outsells lamb and mutton combined.[/li][li]Horse has less fat than beef.[/li][li]Horsemeat lacks euphemisms, unlike cowmeat, sheepmeat, pigmeat and baby-cowmeat.[/li][/ul] There are two petitions on the subject at the White House. 1. [Support a Ban on Horse Slaughter](https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-ban-horse-slaughter/q30gJg1k) > [@White House Petition](#): > > President Obama should support the American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act of 2011, S.B. 1176/H.R. 2966, to ban the slaughter of horses for human consumption: > > 1. Horses are revered for their contributions to the building of this country, their companionship and special bond with people; > > (2) Horses are not raised for the purpose of being slaughtered for human consumption, and, indeed, American horses are not raised, fed and medicated within the FDA guidelines established for food animals, making them potentially unfit and unsafe for human consumption; > > (3) Horse slaughter is animal cruelty, not humane euthanasia; it means environmental and economic devastation for communities; and > > (4) Banning slaughter would reduce the number of horses in need and improve horse welfare. > > Created: Sep 23, 2011 I have no idea what they mean by “environmental and economic devastation for communities”. 6121 signatures 1. [Restore humane horse slaughter to improve horse welfare, stop needless & wasteful suffering & create jobs.](https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/restore-humane-horse-slaughter-improve-horse-welfare-stop-needless-wasteful-suffering-create-jobs/2QtJRrxY) > [@White House Petition](#): > > The GAO report “HORSE WELFARE: Action Needed to Address Unintended Consequences from Cessation of Domestic Slaughter” documents the decline in horse welfare, & the economic demise of the horse industry due to inappropriate federal intervention that closed the humane & regulated horse slaughter plants in the U.S. As pointed out by the GAO, & as testified to by practically every horse industry & Ag organization in the Nation, appropriation riders & bills that seek to eliminate any possibility of humanely processing horses offer zero solutions & only exacerbate the suffering of horses, increase the number of needless & wasteful deaths, cause more abandonment, neglect, pain, & misery–they deprive families of livelihoods & the ability to raise their kids with the joy of horses in their lives. > Created: Sep 22, 2011 I guess horse slaughters lack an organized pressure group: their petition lacks a certain polish. 5389 signatures ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/53 "2011-10-26T12:02:45Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Wikipedia addresses some of these issues in their horse meat article. The stuff is taboo in the US, but not in France or Japan. But if it were available in the US would there be demand? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/54 "2011-10-26T13:24:57Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > But if it were available in the US would there be demand? Back when it was legal, I think it was pretty much all exported. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/55 "2011-10-26T15:00:31Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Thankyou for your generous offer, but I think I’ll decline. I don’t like meat with lots of fat on it . Where do you live on Vancouver Island? I have some questions unrelated to this thread. I promise not to show up at your doorstep with a seal-burger. > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Gander. We’re contemplating a move to Newfoundland, and I’m surprisingly comfortable with the idea. I say surprisingly because it’s about as unlike New York City as anywhere I can imagine where they speak English. If you wind up visiting Newfoundland, get in touch with me, we can a mini-dopefest. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/56 "2011-10-26T15:07:04Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Some fish are bred as companions/pets. Goldfish are a form of carp. Lots of people eat carp. Should they not? I can’t help but think that you missed the entire point of my post. We do not have the same relationship with any fish that I know of that is the same as the one we have with dogs, cats and horses. Again, I’m not arguing that it’s ethical to eat a fish and unethical to eat a horse. Just that it isn’t stupid to place them in different categories. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/57 "2011-10-26T15:31:07Z")
Our various governments spend lots of money killing dogs and cats, by the way, and catching and transporting, and housing them. And investigating the breeders willing to produce three times as many dogs and cat than are ever likely to sell. And millions of them die of starvation and abuse. Thank God we are too moral as a society to eat them. Tris ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/58 "2011-10-27T00:48:34Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Where do you live on Vancouver Island? I have some questions unrelated to this thread. I promise not to show up at your doorstep with a seal-burger. I live up island in Campbell River, salmon fishing capital of the world, PM me if you like. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/59 "2011-10-27T08:05:35Z")
More from Google News: We torture **pkbites** with this hijack: Animal rights activists are horrified that horses are permitted to pull carriages in New York City’s Central Park. [Mayor Bloomberg doesn’t care](http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/149695/mayor-stands-by-city-s-controversial-carriage-horse-industry). I hope the activists are not as unhinged as they sound to me. RO - RO - RO. [300-400 horses](http://www.startribune.com/local/north/132502208.html) in Minnesota have been found malnourished over the past several years. Yikes. It costs about $4000 per year to maintain a horse. Auctions in NY and PA [now sell the animals for $10-$700](http://www.eagletribune.com/latestnews/x2117289724/Sandown-women-keep-horses-from-slaughterhouse): the article tells of 2 women who try to outbid the dealers and save the horses from the Mexican or Canadian ax. I don’t share their values and I can think of higher priorities – but good for them for following their dreams. They rehabilitate and resell the horses at their farm, where they also give riding lessons and host a summer camp. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719/60 "2011-10-27T15:30:25Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I live up island in Campbell River, salmon fishing capital of the world, PM me if you like. Done. Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/end-the-us-de-facto-ban-on-horse-slaughterhouses/600719.md?page=4)