# Ender's Game - I just finished it for the first time (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 6, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263 "2010-10-06T15:54:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![monkeylucifer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@monkeylucifer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monkeylucifer)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/41 "2010-10-07T10:44:15Z")
Here is an article about his stance on same sex marriage: [Logo TV | Homepage | Watch on logotv.com](http://www.afterelton.com/people/2008/7/orsonscottcard) Don’t support this author. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/42 "2010-10-07T11:11:16Z")
I enjoyed _Ender’s Game_ well enough, but the short story it’s expanded from worked better, imo. I wouldn’t care to read either version, or the sequels, again now though. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/43 "2010-10-07T11:49:04Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I thought it was OK, but I read it in my late-20’s. The thing that brought me out of the books was the kids themselves… children, even smart ones, don’t speak and reason _that_ clearly. In the introduction someone mentioned earlier, Card actually writes that kids tell him all the time that Ender’s Game was special to them because he captured how kids think. Then he goes on a crazy diatribe about people calling him insane because they think no kids talk like that. You can almost hear him pout through the pages with a “They do!” in response. ---
**Author:** ![monkeylucifer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@monkeylucifer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monkeylucifer)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/44 "2010-10-07T11:56:46Z")
There are rumors that the sequels were done by ghost writers, which could explain why they are so not lke the first book. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/45 "2010-10-07T12:06:38Z")
> [@monkeylucifer](#): > > A perfect excuse for genocide and a apolgia for Hitler. > > The most overrated science fiction book of all time. What? I don’t think so. I’ll admit that Ender feels like a Hitler at the end, but I can at least understand what most of humanity was thinking here. The buggers did attack and even though they pulled back, humans could not expect that they would not attack again. Does anyone else think of the Minbari from Babylon 5? They were clearly more powerful than the humans, but stopped suddenly. ---
**Author:** ![monkeylucifer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@monkeylucifer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monkeylucifer)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/46 "2010-10-07T12:41:20Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > > [@monkeylucifer](#): > > > > A perfect excuse for genocide and a apolgia for Hitler. > > > > The most overrated science fiction book of all time. > > What? I don’t think so. I’ll admit that Ender feels like a Hitler at the end, but I can at least understand what most of humanity was thinking here. The buggers did attack and even though they pulled back, humans could not expect that they would not attack again. > > Does anyone else think of the Minbari from Babylon 5? They were clearly more powerful than the humans, but stopped suddenly. Hey we are getting attacked by some aliens, so let us train a bitter and twisted kid to kill them and trick him into doing it throught a video game. That is some fucked up bullshit. Totally hacktacular. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/47 "2010-10-07T12:56:48Z")
Um, that’s the whole point of it. It’s supposed to be fucked up, Ender spirals into self loathing because of it. It’s not as if the book ignores the issues or celebrates it. Or are you only familiar with books about butterflies and rainbows? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/48 "2010-10-07T13:05:24Z")
> [@monkeylucifer](#): > > Totally hacktacular. No - totally _genre_-tacular. It’s a classic Twilight-Zone-y, pulpy hard sci-fi kinda plot twist that, if pulled off well, is hugely fun. In EG, he did a decent job - especially if you read the book when you were younger or completely unspoiled and you know the “rules of the game” - i.e., if you try too hard, you may figure out the plot twist and spoil the ride… …the fact that OSC thought he was up to the task to transcend the genre and delve into the hard questions raised by the acts of deception (against Ender) and xenocide (by Ender) - well, that’s where he was trying to punch above his weight class writing-wise… ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/49 "2010-10-07T13:05:35Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > What? I don’t think so. I’ll admit that Ender feels like a Hitler at the end, but I can at least understand what most of humanity was thinking here. The buggers did attack and even though they pulled back, humans could not expect that they would not attack again. Reading **Mufatango** ’s link, there are so many similarities that it’s hard to imagine it wasn’t done on purpose. How likely is it for your genocidal character (like Hitler) to be the third child (like Hitler) who had a poor relationship with his family except for his older sister (like Hitler) who was chaste until the age of 37 (like Hitler) _by coincidence_? ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/50 "2010-10-07T13:06:31Z")
> [@Randy\_Seltzer](#): > > Card, once again, has his protagonist as the most infallible perfect being in the story. IMO, this cheapens the original story. I’ve heard the meme expressed as “Boy Wonder saves the World”. And it’s true. There are even worse examples (to me) than the ones you cited - the bit in _Shadow of the Hegemon_ where they meet up with Peter and then his/Ender’s mother and every character seems to be vying for the title of “most infallible dude who is _totally_ manipulating everyone around them to just what they want and nobody even knows it” is a particularly low point. There are a lot of things to like about _Ender’s Shadow_, as a book. But I prefer to skip the bits that duplicate _Ender’s Game_ scenes when I reread it, because they just annoy me too much. _Shadow of the Hegemon_ isn’t worth reading at all, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/51 "2010-10-07T13:11:31Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > > [@JohnT](#): > > > > I thought it was OK, but I read it in my late-20’s. The thing that brought me out of the books was the kids themselves… children, even smart ones, don’t speak and reason _that_ clearly. > > > > It got worse later on, when, in one of the followups (_Shadow of the Hegemon_), OSC has two teenagers (brother and sister)… > > > > become world-shaping political forces by taking on personas which are the _opposite_ of what they really believe. > > > > There are not enough “C’mon, now!'s” and “Oh, bullshit!'s” in the world to express the implausibility of the plot. Just writing this post makes my eyes roll. > > What? That happened right in **Ender’s Game** itself. You’re right, it did. My bad. Don’t know why I thought it was the other book (SotH), other than to say it’s been quite a while since I read the novel. Anyway, now that I think about it… C’mon, now! Oh, bullshit! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/52 "2010-10-07T13:33:42Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Um, that’s the whole point of it. It’s supposed to be fucked up, Ender spirals into self loathing because of it. It’s not as if the book ignores the issues or celebrates it. Or are you only familiar with books about butterflies and rainbows? Agreeing with you… And he doesn’t forgive himself for something like a thousand years (through the magic of relativity). Really. He literally and figuratively carries his guilt with him everywhere he goes, until a later incident finally convinces him he has suffered enough and possibly begun to make amends. It breaks him. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/53 "2010-10-07T13:36:30Z")
> [@Randy\_Seltzer](#): > > _Ender’s Game_ was one of my absolute favorite books when I was a kid. I read it and _Speaker_ before any of the other dozen-or-so “Ender” books came out, and loved them both. As the other books in the series came out, I became a little disenchanted, and reading some of Card’s other works, I think I figured out why, and **Time Stranger** puts his finger on it: Card cannot write about any protagonist who is not a perfect untouchable exemplar. (Single tragic flaws are acceptable.) > > In the “parallel” novels, which are told from Bean’s perspective, it emerges that Bean’s intelligence secretly eclipses Ender’s by orders of magnitude, and all indications to the contrary from the original story are lampshaded. Card, once again, has his protagonist as the most infallible perfect being in the story. IMO, this cheapens the original story. > > And you find this in some of Card’s other works as well. In the _Alvin Maker_ series, the world is peopled by characters with quirky little superpowers, like the ability to whistle really pretty tunes, or walk perfectly silently, or count large groups with perfect accuracy. And the protagonist? Essentially has the ability to do anything, which comes included with an infallible moral compass, physical attractiveness, and irresistible charm. Another perfect protagonist. (I also read the “Homecoming” series, where the same template holds, but with heavy messianic/Mormon overtones.) > > Once you catch the pattern in Card’s works, it’s hard to un-see. The settings and plots are interesting, but the characters are all pretty one-dimensional. I haven’t read the rest of Card’s stuff, I’m just going by the first book itself. In that book, Ender did not seem like some sort of perfect untouchable exemplar to me - more like a fucked-up kid, being twisted and manipulated into committing murder and then genocide, and feeling tons of guilt for it. He was certainly a genius, but not necessarily smart about everything - again, he failed to see what his masters were manipulating him into doing. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/54 "2010-10-07T13:50:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I haven’t read the rest of Card’s stuff, I’m just going by the first book itself. In that book, Ender did not seem like some sort of perfect untouchable exemplar to me - more like a fucked-up kid, being twisted and manipulated into committing **murder** and then genocide, and feeling tons of guilt for it. He was certainly a genius, but not necessarily smart about everything - again, he failed to see what his masters were manipulating him into doing. That part drove me up the fucking wall. He’s 6, how could he manage to overpower and murder two teenagers twice his size? Oh, he hit them really hard you say? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/55 "2010-10-07T14:03:33Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > That part drove me up the fucking wall. He’s 6, how could he manage to overpower and murder two teenagers twice his size? Oh, he hit them really hard you say? :rolleyes: That part didn’t bother me - it’s a commonplace of martial arts that smaller people who know where and how to hit can beat up bigger people. What bothered me (slightly) is what others have mentioned - that his bro and sis could, by carefully publishing blogs, end up running the world. I can just see that inspiring thousands of would-be Peter Wiggins. 😃 I suspended disbelief (with difficulty). ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/56 "2010-10-07T14:08:00Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > > > That part drove me up the fucking wall. He’s 6, how could he manage to overpower and murder two teenagers twice his size? Oh, he hit them really hard you say? :rolleyes: > > That part didn’t bother me - it’s a commonplace of martial arts that smaller people who know where and how to hit can beat up bigger people. That’s what bothered me. Ender had no special knowledge of martial arts. He was just a regular six year old who apparently was also Batman. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/57 "2010-10-07T14:11:26Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > > [@Malthus](#): > > > > That part didn’t bother me - it’s a commonplace of martial arts that smaller people who know where and how to hit can beat up bigger people. > > That’s what bothered me. Ender had no special knowledge of martial arts. He was just a regular six year old who apparently was also Batman. The first time, he was just lucky (and just kept beating on the kid when he was down). Also, the kid, though bigger, was in the same class as him. The second time, he had in fact deliberately studied martial arts for just that contingency, though it is only mentioned in passing in the book. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/58 "2010-10-07T14:42:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > > [@Randy\_Seltzer](#): > > > > _Ender’s Game_ was one of my absolute favorite books when I was a kid. I read it and _Speaker_ before any of the other dozen-or-so “Ender” books came out, and loved them both. As the other books in the series came out, I became a little disenchanted, and reading some of Card’s other works, I think I figured out why, and **Time Stranger** puts his finger on it: Card cannot write about any protagonist who is not a perfect untouchable exemplar. (Single tragic flaws are acceptable.) > > > > In the “parallel” novels, which are told from Bean’s perspective, it emerges that Bean’s intelligence secretly eclipses Ender’s by orders of magnitude, and all indications to the contrary from the original story are lampshaded. Card, once again, has his protagonist as the most infallible perfect being in the story. IMO, this cheapens the original story. > > > > And you find this in some of Card’s other works as well. In the _Alvin Maker_ series, the world is peopled by characters with quirky little superpowers, like the ability to whistle really pretty tunes, or walk perfectly silently, or count large groups with perfect accuracy. And the protagonist? Essentially has the ability to do anything, which comes included with an infallible moral compass, physical attractiveness, and irresistible charm. Another perfect protagonist. (I also read the “Homecoming” series, where the same template holds, but with heavy messianic/Mormon overtones.) > > > > Once you catch the pattern in Card’s works, it’s hard to un-see. The settings and plots are interesting, but the characters are all pretty one-dimensional. > > I haven’t read the rest of Card’s stuff, I’m just going by the first book itself. In that book, Ender did not seem like some sort of perfect untouchable exemplar to me - more like a fucked-up kid, being twisted and manipulated into committing murder and then genocide, and feeling tons of guilt for it. He was certainly a genius, but not necessarily smart about everything - again, he failed to see what his masters were manipulating him into doing. Yeah, Ender isn’t the perfect person. He’s the perfect _tactician_. Basically he’s the perfect field General and that includes the fact that he takes orders from the powers that be perfectly. Peter too was perfect in a very specific way, he was the perfect politician. He was however flawed on a personal level in many ways. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/59 "2010-10-07T14:44:07Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What bothered me (slightly) is what others have mentioned - that his bro and sis could, by carefully publishing blogs, end up running the world. I can just see that inspiring thousands of would-be Peter Wiggins. 😃 Obligatory [xkcd](http://xkcd.com/635/) ---
**Author:** ![aktep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f0a364/32.png) [@aktep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aktep)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263/60 "2010-10-07T14:45:54Z")
Having thought about it this morning, I’ve decided \* Xenocide \* is in fact a work of genius. The narrative itself is infected with the descolada! It starts falling apart piece by piece until it’s fully unraveled by the time everyone goes Outside. Now I don’t need to read CotM - clearly it is just 200 pages of random letters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/enders-game-i-just-finished-it-for-the-first-time-spoilers/556263.md?page=4)