# Ending of Gran Torino? \[spoiler\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 27, 2013, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076 "2013-03-27T05:36:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kevin\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/cc9497/32.png) [@Kevin\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevin_S)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/1 "2013-03-27T05:36:37Z")
For anyone who hasn’t seen Gran Torino, and may want to; just a warning, this will spoil the end of the movie. At the end of Gran Torino, the viewer has been led to believe that Walt is going to confront the gang members with guns blazing. However, it turns out that his plan for revenge is to show up unarmed, knowing he is going to be killed and, as a result, get the gang members arrested. I’m curious, though, of how well his plan would have hypothetically played out in court. I mean I’m glad they were arrested at the end of the movie, cause f\*ck them. But could a reasonable defense be made against murder charges against the gang members? How would this have hypothetically played out in court? What I’m thinking is that there are so many technicalities that can be exploited in court that could possibly work against murder charges. When Walt arrived at the gang house, he was unarmed, and did not specifically threaten them. But, it seems as though a self defense case could be made. They had had confrontations with Walt before, so they could reason he was there to do harm to them. And when looking at the details, Walt knew that he was going to be killed by going to the residence. Would this have had an effect on a court case? I think that we maybe rely too heavy on our rationale that, “they are bad guys so they will be found guilty.” Lets say that opposite events took place in the movie. Say, instead, 1 or 2 gang members arrived unarmed on Walt’s lawn. Walt sees them, grabs his gun, and points it at them assuming them to be hostile. They proceed to talk in the obscure manner that Walt had, not implicitly suggesting that they intended harm. One of them reaches into their pocket to get a lighter. Walter assumes he is reaching for a gun, so he shoots and kills them. Would Walt be automatically convicted of murder? Or would there be a rational self-defense argument to be made? They were unarmed, but Walt had reason to believe, from past confrontations, that they may be hostile. Is this not the same situation seen in the movie, just up-side-down? I do realize that they could be charged with other crimes; such as illegal firearms, any drugs in the residence, or other litigations brought out by a court hearing. But I’m specifically thinking about a murder charge. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/2 "2013-03-27T10:49:51Z")
My impression was that the cops already had tons of dirt on these guys, but the local community is too afraid of retaliation to do any real charge-pressing, and maybe the cops don’t care that much either. The dead old guy forces an investigation, and even if the murder charge goes bye-bye with a “he was acting all crazy and I didn’t know it was just a lighter” the premises would be searched and something would be found that would stick. The murder charge itself is debatable. It’s bringing in serious investigation that really “saves the day”. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/3 "2013-03-27T11:03:31Z")
Remember also, this isn’t his plan for revenge. This is his plan to protect his neighbours. A long-running police investigation actually accomplishes that aim, even if it doesn’t end in a conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/4 "2013-03-27T13:22:28Z")
I don’t have anything to add except this was a great movie, and I reported this thread for a move to Cafe Society. Welcome to the boards **Kevin S.** ---
**Author:** ![Harvey\_Ferguson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/97f17d/32.png) [@Harvey\_Ferguson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harvey_Ferguson)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/5 "2013-03-27T13:44:54Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > _ **I don’t have anything to add except this was a great movie,** _ and I reported this thread for a move to Cafe Society. Welcome to the boards **Kevin S.** I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/6 "2013-03-27T13:57:15Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Remember also, this isn’t his plan for revenge. This is his plan to protect his neighbours. A long-running police investigation actually accomplishes that aim, even if it doesn’t end in a conviction. And anyway its a silly child idea, it wasn’t the nobel prize winning peace plan, Whether the boy was sure he was going to succeed, or whether he was only quitely confidence but he was prepared to die trying, the movie forgot to say .. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/7 "2013-03-27T14:39:47Z")
> [@Kevin\_S](#): > > And when looking at the details, Walt knew that he was going to be killed by going to the residence. How could this be known by anyone other than people watching the movie? ---
**Author:** ![FordTaurusSHO94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f07891/32.png) [@FordTaurusSHO94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordTaurusSHO94)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/8 "2013-03-27T14:42:09Z")
It’s been awhile since I’ve seen it, but didn’t some of them use machine guns to shoot him? That can get you in trouble pretty quick. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/9 "2013-03-27T14:47:35Z")
Yeah, being a totally fictional scenario I don’t know that you can speculate too easily with real world legal matters. In a real criminal trial a lot more detailed information is used than what we can definitively know just from watching the movie. What would the gang members have said to police in the initial interview? A smart defendant knows to only speak in terms of acting in fear for their life, an idiot gang member can and in real life do stupidly say things like “we were waiting for that old guy to show up so we could waste him since he disrespected us.” Ultimately though, it’s unlikely an elderly man, standing on a public street (I don’t believe he even walks onto the yard of the house) getting gunned down by members of a criminal gang is going to be seen by a jury as someone who put the gang members in fear for their life. So just based on superficial evidence we have it’s unlikely a jury would buy a self defense argument. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/10 "2013-03-27T14:57:29Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Ultimately though, it’s unlikely an elderly man, standing on a public street (I don’t believe he even walks onto the yard of the house) getting gunned down by members of a criminal gang is going to be seen by a jury as someone who put the gang members in fear for their life. So just based on superficial evidence we have it’s unlikely a jury would buy a self defense argument. That’s it. A jury would not have known most or any of the story leading up to the shooting; they would have just seen an old man gunned down on the street and heard a lot of hearsay from the gang members. Gang member hearsay doesn’t mean much to juries. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/11 "2013-03-27T15:03:05Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Remember also, this isn’t his plan for revenge. This is his plan to protect his neighbours. It’s not just that. Walt doesn’t want Thao to get caught up in the gang mentality of answering violence with violence. Walt isn’t just protecting Thao and his family, he’s trying to put Thao on the right path and keep him away from gangs and violence and show him that there are better ways to live your life. Walt knew he was going to die anyway (you see him coughing up blood in several earlier scenes). He could have chosen to go out in a blaze of glory. Instead he chose a path where he didn’t fire a single shot. That was for Thao’s benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/12 "2013-03-27T18:03:04Z")
Moved to Cafe Society. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Enright3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enright3/32/2897_2.png) [@Enright3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enright3)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/13 "2013-03-27T18:05:26Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > It’s not just that. Walt doesn’t want Thao to get caught up in the gang mentality of answering violence with violence. Walt isn’t just protecting Thao and his family, he’s trying to put Thao on the right path and keep him away from gangs and violence and show him that there are better ways to live your life. > > Walt knew he was going to die anyway (you see him coughing up blood in several earlier scenes). He could have chosen to go out in a blaze of glory. Instead he chose a path where he didn’t fire a single shot. That was for Thao’s benefit. And I think it was for his own benefit too. 1) He apparently had cancer or something terminal. I don’t think he wanted to die a slow miserable death; when the only person he really cared about was already dead (his wife). 2) He was burdened by his role in the military; not by the terrible things he was ordered to do; but by the terrible things he did that he WASN’T ordered to do. So I think that YES, he did it for Thao; but he also did it to redeem himself. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/14 "2013-03-27T18:40:22Z")
> [@Enright3](#): > > So I think that YES, he did it for Thao; but he also did it to redeem himself. I agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/15 "2013-03-27T18:55:16Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I don’t have anything to add except this was a great movie, and I reported this thread for a move to Cafe Society. Welcome to the boards **Kevin S.** I agree. In fact, I was surprised by how moving it turned out to be. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/16 "2013-03-27T19:04:26Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > I agree with that. Hence why he died with his arms spread wide like Christ on a pogo… I mean cross. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/17 "2013-03-27T19:18:05Z")
[Quote=Defendant] Your Honor I swear, we riddled that old man with bullets because we thought he had a gun [/quote] Not much of a defense. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/18 "2013-03-27T19:26:17Z")
Also, how many bullets did they pump into him? How many guys shot him? They _all_ thought he was going to kill them? OTOH, it’s a defense that works for cops “He made a sudden movement and I thought he was going for a gun!” BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! And then some more cops start shooting too! ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/19 "2013-03-27T19:34:25Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Also, how many bullets did they pump into him? How many guys shot him? They _all_ thought he was going to kill them? > > OTOH, it’s a defense that works for cops “He made a sudden movement and I thought he was going for a gun!” > > BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! > > And then some more cops start shooting too! > [@Defendant](#): > > Your Honor, I swear we riddled that old man with bullets because we thought he had a gun, and we thought we were cops. Not sure that helps much. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076/20 "2013-03-27T21:12:09Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Also, how many bullets did they pump into him? How many guys shot him? They _all_ thought he was going to kill them? > > OTOH, it’s a defense that works for cops “He made a sudden movement and I thought he was going for a gun!” > > BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! > > And then some more cops start shooting too! Now, now, no one shoots 56 times. Even the NYPD stopped at 41 for Amadou Diallo. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ending-of-gran-torino-spoiler/654076.md?page=2)